Calling all keyboard protestors, ranter and ravers

Discussion in 'About the Members' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    I disagree with this guy's analysis. First of all he behaves as if the all the members of Occupy are of one mind, that they all have a unified idea of what needs to take place, they are not all socialist and they certainly are not all against capitalism. They are asking for social responsibility, fiscal responsibility and a return to the rule of law. Second he assumes that this is a movement of hippie students alone and I have been talking to middle and upper middle class working adults, members of various unions and academics. Third the members of occupy do know that everything that is operating is operating as one state but here's the thing, when Argentina (Varda may know a little about this), was being fucked every which way by all of their government leaders and institutions who had co-opted with the international bankers and corporations, their nation was in debt and then the IMF came in and fucked them a little harder, it was precisely non-violent civil disobedience that brought the government down. I mean you had every man, woman and child out in the streets confronting the uniformed men with guns. What worked? Implementing regulation, unhinging themselves from the dollar, telling the IMF to go to hell and nationalizing their assets and putting the money back into society. This guy seems to think that the same people whom he says shouldn't ask the government for anything because the government is the problem then turns around and suggests that the protestors try and get the government to relate to them peacefully (as if the state would abide by that desire and not others). He is also confused, he says that corporations are there to make money, this is true but that doesn't mean corporations cannot make money and contribute to the common good, Apple Inc being a prime example. They make money through their innovations and they don't underpay their employees and they try and they are open about their carbon footprint etc. Not all business and not all banks engage in fraud. He claims corporations don't engage in war but they do, they did in Argentina and its what Max Keiser calls economic terrorism, its just as brutal as dropping a bomb on a nation. As far as Occupy goes there are many who speak of local economies and turn their backs on state solutions all together. He's advocating understanding the problem but if you really talk to people in Occupy there are varying degrees of understanding and education. He seems to think that if everyone stayed home and 'studied' the cause of the problem that the problem will magically fix itself, this is evident in that he blasts all solution but cannot offer one. He also uses a reductive argument that we 'choose' things everyday, which is only partly true. The poor cannot choose what they want to eat, what jobs they can have or where they can live. The desire to not have one system to rule the group is exactly how Occupy is organized.
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  3. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    I believe they are protesting the lack of regulation and lack of taxation of the rich and corporations. The government representatives are not doing enough to reign in the worst aspects of capitalism because they are bought.
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Exactamundo. There are other things too but that's the gist of it.
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  7. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    Very insightful. I agree with most of this analysis, though I am not sure I am in complete agreement with the virtues of the Apple corp. lol When I posted that interview, I posted it as critique of the movement as a whole, and why it won't achieve it's aims, what it is lacking. For instance, they are protesting in the wrong place. They should be protesting in Washington or at the Federal Reserve. The corporations on wall street after all, did do nothing technically wrong, they followed the law. I watched one of these videos when it was posted, I forget which one now. . .
    In some of the exchanges on this video, I noticed the frustration. Some were wondering why they just didn't shoot those rich people drinking and laughing at the protesters. Others wondered why that building wasn't lit on fire. Why were these elites laughing and enjoying the protest? Because they had nothing to fear. They followed the law to get rich. And were still following it. Why? Because they helped make it. And they know that these poor folk down on the street aren't going to change anything by protesting. They control the media, so few people that are affected by their control of the system are going to know about what is going on there.

    Now this guy Stefan has a lot of good critiques as to why this thing will not grow or be effective. Namely, a lack of leadership articulating what exactly is wrong with the system that can generate a true understanding and mobilize a mass movement. With out that, why will people show up to protest if they don't think a protest will make any difference. What does the protest hope to achieve? Who is going to come join the protest w/o that understanding? At least with the civil rights protests? That was made clear. With the Arab Spring protests, that was made clear. Here? Nope, we just don't know what we want.

    But I am a bit suspicious of Stefan. He has clear links to the Mises Institute, which I tend to be suspicious of, like any other ideological map for societal control.

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    As such, he has in common, a philosophical bent which could be categorized as being kin to that of a Ron Paul. Mises is a big Ron Paul supporter. I find it odd that many of the items and philosophical agenda that these protestors are venting are along the same lines which Ron Paul is actively campaigning on. How many more poor disenfranchised people could show up to these locations, if he just took half a million from his campaign chests, bused in a bunch of people, and talked to their concerns. You know, told the WHY none of the rules and regulations on wall street where changed after the 2008 melt down. Tell them how the corruption continues no matter what party is in office. But I think there is something more going on here. . . .

    I have followed Stephan's video's a long time, and personally, I would have thought that he would have come out in favor of these protests, yet with a critical eye towards what they need to be successful. Currently, I am on the fence. My heart is with the protesters, but what I see in the alternative news sources is an anemic movement that has no coherent strategy, one that is just barely struggling to keep momentum alive. My hope is that by Octobers end, when the budget is in crunch time, there will be mandatory cuts, and there will be tax increases, but most likely on the middle class. At this point we may see some growth in the protests. But hopefully by then there will be a strategy, the people will be educated and know how this was done to them, and we will not just hear the mantra of "This is unfair."

    SO? What do the people propose to do about it?
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member


    First you are making a lot of assumptions on a movement you clearly haven't really investigated.

    First there is a march on Washington October 6th I believe and there are those who are staging events at the Federal Reserve, the point is for Occupy to spread to other cities. Wall street location is symbolic, it also provides them the space. The Fed building isn't that far from their location anyway, neither is Goldman Sachs for that matter except they don't even have name on their building. They have daily activities, such as occupying media networks etc. You really have to go to one of the general assemblies and start talking to people there to really know what is going on.

    I disagree that they didn't do anything wrong. Here's what they did wrong or rather here is where the fraud lies:

    "Most discussion of the role of fraud in the crisis has focused on two forms of deception: predatory lending and misrepresentation of risks. Clearly, some borrowers were lured into taking out complex, expensive loans they didn’t understand — a process facilitated by Bush-era federal regulators, who both failed to curb abusive lending and prevented states from taking action on their own. And for the most part, subprime lenders didn’t hold on to the loans they made. Instead, they sold off the loans to investors, in some cases surely knowing that the potential for future losses was greater than the people buying those loans (or securities backed by the loans) realized.What we’re now seeing are accusations of a third form of fraud."

    There were also other abuses:

    Paul Krugman waltzed into the foreclosure fraud settlement today, with a column that even John McCain found himself agreeing with. That’s because it criticizes the Obama Administration for letting the banks get off easy in the aftermath of the financial crisis, and in preparing to offer a settlement on foreclosure fraud that amounts to a slap on the wrist:
    The failure to seek real mortgage relief early in the Obama administration is one reason we still have 9 percent unemployment. And right now, the arguments that officials are reportedly making for a quick, bank-friendly settlement of the mortgage-abuse scandal don’t make sense. The claim that removing the legal cloud over foreclosure would help the housing market — in particular, that it would help support housing prices — leaves me scratching my head. It would just accelerate foreclosures, and if more families were evicted from their homes, that would mean more homes offered for sale — an increase in supply. An increase in the supply of a good usually pushes that good’s price down, not up. Why should the effect on housing go the opposite way? [...]

    What about the argument that getting tough with the banks would threaten the overall economy? Here the question is: What’s holding the economy back?

    It’s not the state of the banks. It’s true that fears about bank solvency disrupted financial markets in late 2008 and early 2009. But those markets have long since returned to normal, in large part because everyone now knows that banks will be bailed out if they get in trouble.
    The big drag on the economy now is the overhang of household debt, largely created by the $5.6 trillion in mortgage debt that households took on during the bubble years. Serious mortgage relief could make a dent in that problem; a $30 billion settlement from the banks, even if it proved more effective than the government’s modification program, would not.

    I agree with Chris Hedges that a violent response is exactly what the powers that be would enjoy. They don't know what to do with a public that uses peaceful disobedience, they definitely know what to do if the public get's violent which would be to shut down the whole group. We do have the National Lawyer's Guild who have come out and offered their services to the group. So for example that's who I would call if I were arrested, they do the work pro bono. The only time violence works as a tactic is when you have the whole of society reacting that way, meaning not just a few hundred people but thousands of people, that's when it becomes a bloody coup. But if that happened then it wouldn't be a few execs drinking champagne it would be the White House administration having to escape via helicopter or get eaten alive by the hoi polio. I

    Also Occupy is growing, its in San Francisco, Unions have joined and its sprouting up in other cities, Not bad for a movement that only began 3 weeks ago. The problem with stating what is wrong with Occupy is that no one else is offering any other form of action. To stay home and do nothing and then criticize those who are isn't really very effective, because they are actually doing more than pontificating from their couches. There is no head for a reason, its modeled on organizations such as Anonymous and the Wobblies, if he you have a head then it can be cut off, if you don't have a head then there is no one person to attack and there is no one person whom the whole group relies upon. I don't know about the group not getting any traction, there is an occupy asia and its popped up in Europe and when 700 protestors from Occupy were arrested at the brooklyn bridge it made Al Jazeera's top story. The great thing about media these days is that not everyone is dependent on main stream news. I know a lot of people who watch Democracy Now and Truthdig and look to other media sources. The whole point is to get people to be pro-active and not dependent on orders from above. They don't need to have one packaged ideological system nor do they need leadership, they've had marches and this whole thing was organized without any leadership. Everyone has their role and everyone does their part, you don't need leadership to know to set up a labor committee or a civil disobedience committee or run a general assembly meeting or set up a PR committee all of these things are being done without any 'leader'. There is not one thing wrong with the system, there are a whole lot of things wrong with the system and every time its addressed the list grows longer and longer. What was wrong with the system in Argentina or Greece? It would probably be easier to list what wasn't wrong. Because there is so much wrong, the general idea that deregulation, bailouts and the reigning in of the financial sector and the lobbyists who buy our politicians is a great place to start.

    The beauty of Occupy is that it doesn't exclude any particular group, if it focused solely on jobs then you wouldn't have room for the Green people, or those who are concerned about other issues. All the problems we see today are inter-connected and a large group of people are being affected. Occupy welcomes them all. The larger the movement grows the more solutions available.

    If you want to know what the protestors hope to achieve you have to go to the website Go check out the forum and read their list of demands:


    1. CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT.–Steagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened:–Steagall_Act#Repeal . 

    clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.

    3. CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.

    4. CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.

    5. CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.


    7. CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.

    8. ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight.
  9. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    Admittedly, you are more knowledgeable about this than I. However, I must point out, that Stephan was right. You posted the Occupy demands, and they were all a list of demands for congress to do something. . . . and isn't it congress that is the problem? The people are given essentially two candidates to vote for. If the candidates are in a critical district, money comes in from influential sources. If not, then influential sources sway the parties which put pressure on the representatives after they are elected. Either way, the protest is looking towards the government to correct the problem, when government is the problem.

    Government is the creator of this problem, and yet the people are looking for it to solve this problem. I just don't think it will, or even can. Not with in the framework of the existing system. Incidentally, the only way to accomplish demand number eight is through a hearing at the supreme court. This is where this person hood status was determined for corporations, and I believe this is the only way it can be "undone."

    Most of the representatives in congress? Their reaction to such a protest, and these demands would be as follows: "If you are so passionate about this, why not just vote in representatives that will do your bidding?" And what is the answer to this. . . we are a representative republic are we not?

    Here's something I found interesting. The people are protesting the government for a redress of grievances. . . so what does JPMorgan do?
    It buys more cops. lol
  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member


    Its through congress where many deregulations went through, that helped create the problem. Clinton removing glass-steagal helped create the crises, its at the heart of the problem. The lack of election funding reform is part of the problem. You say 'government' is the creator of this problem and then you say Congress isn't the problem when Congress is a government institution.

    Representatives can and are driven by popular movements. Why do you think they got rid of DADT! Or why did they decriminalize abortion, or change jim crow laws. Most of the social benefits in this country came through popular grass-roots movements. Let them get more cops by all means, cause they'll need them. You think it was easy arresting 700 protestors clustered on the Brooklyn Bridge?
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member


    This is for you Eso, its about Occupy. Its spreading like a hot rash:!

    I challenge you to join us:



    1) Illinois
    Occupy Chicago
    Occupy Springfield, IL

    2) Indiana
    Occupy Columbus, IN
    Occupy Evansville
    Occupy Indiana
    Occupy Indianapolis

    3) Iowa
    Occupy Iowa

    4) Kansas
    Occupy Wichita

    5) Michigan

    Occupy Grand Rapids
    Occupy Michigan

    6) Minnesota
    Occupy Minnesota

    7) Missouri

    Occupy Columbia, MO
    Occupy Joplin, MO
    Occupy Kansas City
    Occupy St. Louis

    8) Nebraska

    Occupy Omaha
    North Dakota
    Occupy Fargo-Moorhead

    9) Ohio

    Occupy Cincinnati
    Occupy Cleveland
    Occupy Columbus, OH
    Occupy Dayton
    Occupy Toledo, OH
    Occupy Youngstown

    10) Oklahoma

    Occupy OKC
    Occupy OSU (Stillwater)
    Occupy Tulsa

    11) Wisconsin

    Occupy Madison
    Occupy Wisconsin


    12) Connecticut

    Occupy Hartford, CT
    Occupy New Haven

    13) District of Columbia

    Occupy D.C.

    14) Maine
    Occupy Maine

    15) Maryland

    Occupy Baltimore

    16) Massachusetts

    Occupy Boston

    New Jersey
    Occupy New Jersey

    17) New York

    Occupy Albany
    Occupy Binghamton
    Occupy Ithaca
    Occupy Rochester
    Occupy Utica, NY

    18) Pennsylvania

    Occupy Allentown, PA
    Occupy Harrisburg, PA
    Occupy Philadelphia
    Occupy Pittsburgh

    19) Rhode Island

    Occupy Providence, RI

    20) Vermont

    Occupy Vermont

    21) West Virginia

    Occupy Huntington, WV
    Occupy Morgantown, WV
    Occupy Wheeling, WV


    22) Alabama

    Occupy Auburn
    Occupy Birmingham, AL
    Occupy Mobile

    23) Arkansas

    Occupy Arkansas

    24) Florida

    Occupy Daytona Beach
    Occupy Fort Lauderdale
    Occupy Gainesville
    Occupy Jacksonville, FL
    Occupy Miami
    Occupy Ocala
    Occupy Orlando
    Occupy Pensacola
    Occupy Sarasota
    Occupy Tallahassee
    Occupy Tampa

    25) Georgia

    Occupy Atlanta
    Occupy Columbus, GA
    Occupy Savannah

    26) Kentucky

    Occupy Lexington, KY
    Occupy Louisville

    27) Louisiana

    Occupy New Orleans

    28) Mississippi

    Occupy Mississippi

    29) North Carolina

    Occupy Asheville
    Occupy Charlotte
    Occupy Durham
    Occupy Greensboro
    Occupy Raleigh, NC
    Occupy Winston Salem

    30) South Carolina

    Occupy Columbia, SC
    Occupy Florence, SC

    31) Tennessee

    Occupy Clarksville, TN
    Occupy Knoxville
    Occupy Memphis
    Occupy Nashville

    32) Virginia

    Occupy Norfolk, VA
    Occupy Richmond, VA


    33) Arizona

    Occupy Phoenix
    Occupy Tucson

    34) New Mexico

    Occupy Albuquerque
    Occupy Santa Fe

    35) Texas

    Occupy Austin
    Occupy Dallas
    Occupy El Paso
    Occupy Houston
    Occupy McAllen, TX
    Occupy San Antonio


    36) California

    Occupy Arcata
    Occupy Berkeley
    Occupy Chico, CA
    Occupy Fresno
    Occupy Humboldt (HSU)
    Occupy Long Beach
    Occupy Los Angeles
    Occupy Merced
    Occupy Modesto
    Occupy Napa
    Occupy Riverside
    Occupy Sacramento
    Occupy San Diego
    Occupy San Francisco
    Occupy San Jose
    Occupy Santa Ana
    Occupy Santa Barbara
    Occupy Santa Cruz
    Occupy Ventura

    37) Colorado

    Occupy Colorado Springs
    Occupy Denver

    38) Hawaii

    Occupy Hilo
    Occupy Kona
    Occupy Oahu

    39) Idaho

    Occupy Boise
    Occupy Idaho Falls

    34) Montana

    Occupy Montana

    35) Nevada

    Occupy Las Vegas
    Occupy Reno

    36) Oregon

    Occupy Ashland, OR
    Occupy Eugene
    Occupy Portland
    Occupy Salem

    37) Utah

    Occupy Salt Lake City

    39) Washington

    Occupy Olympia
    Occupy Seattle
    Occupy Spokane



    Occupy Tokyo


    Occupy Adelaide
    Occupy Brisbane
    Occupy Melbourne
    Occupy Perth
    Occupy Sydney


    Occupy Calgary
    Occupy Montreal
    Occupy Newfoundland
    Occupy Nova Scotia
    Occupy Ottawa
    Occupy Toronto Market Exchange
    Occupy Vancouver
    Occupy Victoria


    Occupy Cologne
    Occupy Cork, Ireland
    Occupy Den Haag, NL
    Occupy Denmark
    Occupy Finland
    Occupy Frankfurt
    Occupy Hamburg
    Occupy Ljlubljana, Slovenia
    Occupy Manchester
    Occupy Norwich
    Occupy Prague
    Occupy Stockholm
    Occupy the London Stock Exchange


    Occupy Tijuana

    JOIN US!!! All of you! WE ONLY HAVE 11 STATES MORE TO GO!!!
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
  12. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    I just don't think you realize the forces the people are up against. You yourself probably still cling to the governments crazy conspiracy theory that 9/11 was perpetrated by lone fundamentalist islamist terrorists.

    Likewise, you are probably among the many that accept the Warren commission report on the JFK assassination, not giving a second thought to the fact that the head of the commission later became president.

    And what president wanted to reign in government the most, to shrink it down, get it out of people's lives? Could it be Reagan? What did he get for those efforts? How about a bullet? How many people know the association between Reagan's would be assassin's family and the Bush family? Not many I would speculate.

    No, there are very powerful elite forces that come into play, where anything but masses (hundreds of thousands) of people out in the streets will not affect any significant change due to the nature of the system. The people in control are deadly, and are willing to kill, lie, maim, steal, and do nearly anything to hold onto their power. . . including destroy a major American city. And they will use the press to spin that destruction any way they wish to. Why? Because they own the press. . . and by extension, the peoples thoughts too.

    With out really knowing how we got to this point, change will not come easy. And the ways you mention to get effective change done? Those won't work.

    History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance. -James Madison

    If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper money, it was given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to individuals or corporations.
    -Andrew Jackson

    The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity. -Abraham Lincoln

    Issue of currency should be lodged with the government and be protected from domination by Wall Street. We are opposed to...provisions [which] would place our currency and credit system in private hands. - Theodore Roosevelt

    Despite these warnings, Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

    The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson... -Franklin D. Roosevelt (in a letter to Colonel House, dated November 21, 1933)

    Lord Acton: "The issue which has swept down the Centuries, and must be fought - sooner or later -is the people versus the banks...Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupt absolutely..."

    Former Navy Secretary John Lehman: "Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat." [Why would the superclass want to give it up?]

    Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes its Laws.” ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owners of major banks including the Bank of England)

    "Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former Director, Bank of England

    Can anything be more absurd than that a nation should apply to an individual (Rothschild) to maintain its credit, and with its credit its existence as an empire, and its comfort as a people...” BENJAMIN DISRAELI, Prime Minister, Great Britain

    All wars are economic in their origin”. BERNARD BARUCH, before Nye Committee, 9-13-1937

    And there was a cry of the people...against their brethren the Jews...we have mortgaged our lands, vineyards, and houses that we might buy corn because of the dearth...and lo, we bring into bondage our sons and our daughters to be servants...some of our daughters are brought into bondage already; neither is it in our power to redeem them for other men have our lands and our vineyards...” BIBLE: NE: 5:1,7

    Misunderstandings about money have been and continue to be intentional. They derive neither from the nature of money nor from any stupidity of the public...the International Usurocracy aims at preserving intact the public's ignorance of the Usurocratic System and its workings...” EZRA POUND economist

    It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” - HENRY FORD

    Henry Ford thinks it's stupid and so do I, that for the loan of (its) own money... the United States should be compelled to pay...interest. People who will not turn a shovel of dirt nor contribute a pound of material will collect more money from the United States than all the people who supply all the material and do all the work...why must we pay interest to money-brokers for the use of our own money!” THOMAS A. EDISON, re Congress borrowing from FED

    The banks - commercial banks and [privately owned] Federal Reserve - create all the money of this nation, and the nation and its people pay interest on every dollar of that newly created money. Which means that private banks exercise unconstitutionally, immorally, and ridiculously the power to tax the people. For every newly created dollar dilutes to some extent the value of every other dollar already in circulation.” JERRY VOORHIS, U.S. Congress, CA-D., 1946

    No one has the right to be a moneylender save him who has it to lend.” THOMAS JEFFERSON

    ”PATMAN: Mr. Eccles, how do you get the money to buy those two billions of government securities? ECCLES: We created it. PATMAN: Out of what? ECCLES: Out of our right to issue credit money.” HOUSE BANKING AND CURRENCY COMMITTEE hearing, 1941

    When a bank makes a loan it simply adds to the borrower's deposit account in the bank...The money is not taken from anyone else's deposit; it was not previously paid into the bank by anyone. It's new money, created by the bank for the use of the borrower.” SEC'Y TREASURY ANDERSON, "U.S. News & WR", 8-31-59

    In purchasing offerings of Government bonds the banking system as a whole creates new money, or bank deposits. When the banks buy a billion dollars of Government bonds as they are offered...the banks credit the deposit account of the Treasury with a billion dollars. They debit their Government bond account a billion dollars, or they actually create, by a bookkeeping entry, a billion dollars.” MARRINER ECCLES, Chairman Board of Governors, FED, 1935

    The government should create, issue and circulate all currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of Government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is the supreme prerogative of Government….” ABRAHAM LINCOLN (one of the seven US Presidents assassinated after taking issue with the issuance of money by the bankers vs the people)

    Some people think Federal Reserve Banks are United States government institutions. They are not Government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefits of themselves and their foreign customers; foreign and domestic speculators and swindlers; and rich and predatory money lenders. In that dark crew of financial pirates there are those who would cut a man's throat to get a dollar out of his pocket; there are those who send money into states to buy votes to control our legislation; and there are those that maintain an international propaganda for deceiving us...that will permit them to cover up their past misdeeds and set again in motion their gigantic train of crime...” (10 June 1932) Congressman Louis T. McFadden

    Our money system is nothing better than a confidence trick... The "money power" which has been able to overshadow ostensibly responsible government is not the power of the merely ultra-rich but is nothing more or less than a new technique to destroy money by adding and withdrawing figures in bank ledgers, without the slightest concern for the interests of the community or the real role money ought to perform allow it to become a source of revenue to private issuer's is to create, first, a secret and illicit arm of government and, last, a rival power strong enough to ultimately overthrow all other forms of government.” Dr. FRED SODDY, Nobelist, Wealth, Virtual Wealth & Debt

    A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all of our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have become one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized longer a government of free opinion...but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of domineering men.” PRESIDENT WOODROW WILSON, 1916, when he realized his gigantic mistake in supporting the Banksters with the Federal Reserve Act in 1913.

    This [Federal Reserve] Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President signs this bill the invisible government by the Monetary Power will be legalized...the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill. The caucus and party bosses have again operated and prevented the people from getting the benefit of their own government.” CHARLES LINDBERGH, Sr., U.S. Congress

    President Andrew Jackson, wrote: "The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government, the distress it had wantonly produced...are but premonitions of the fate that awaits the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it."

    Thomas Jefferson wrote: "The Central Bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution

    Felix Frankfurter, Justice of the Supreme Court (1939-1962), said: "The real rulers in Washington are invisible and exercise power from behind the scenes."

    Congressman Louis McFadden, House Committee on Banking and Currency Chairman (1920-31), stated: "When the Federal Reserve Act was passed, the people of these United States did not perceive that a world banking system was being set up here. A super-state controlled by international bankers and industrialists...acting together to enslave the world...Every effort has been made by the Fed to conceal its powers but the truth is--the Fed has usurped the government."

    When a bank makes a loan it simply adds to the borrower's deposit account in the bank...The money is not taken from anyone else's deposit; it was not previously paid into the bank by anyone. It's new money, created by the bank for the use of the borrower." SEC'Y TREASURY ANDERSON, "U.S. News & WR", 8-31-59

    "A power has risen up in the government greater than the people themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun

    "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield

    "Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan
  13. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Go back and look at my thread one more time!! I don't care about 9/11, this is bigger than 9/11. Fuck JFK, he's dead! Go back and look at the link I gave you and take on the challenge! You're a pessimist, a pessimist or anyone who believes that the 'forces' are greater then the whole is not going to have any passion devoted to change. Overwhelming forces have always been around and people have still been able to change things, and win! You aren't offering anything but your fears. Get over your fears and get your ass in the streets!!

    DO SOMETHING!!! You think the forces will weaken if you sit around doing nothing? No! Join the people who have balls to spare! The only thing that's certain is change. Join history why don't you! Play your part in real time, revolution and change isn't an intellectual exercise played out on the couch!
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
  14. Gustav Banned Banned

    bravo, lucy
  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Is the fundamental tenant of democracy.

    Listen, or be ousted when your term is up.
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    And its what I'm still hoping is true. What's funny is folk like Eso, whom I know to be aligned with the movement by and large are the ones who doubt that such a thing is still possible. Its like the people think that the powers that be in the present situation are soo soo powerful that no mass movement could change it. I find this baffling, history shows otherwise.
  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    History is replete with examples of popular opinion influencing politics, however, it's probably equally replete with examples of politics ignoring popular opinion.

    Personally, I say good luck to them.
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    And I am willing to go with the good wishes of those who wish everyone luck.
  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Instal MMP

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Third parties actually get a say, as long as voters can get out of a two party mind set.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member


    This isn't directed specifically towards you Trippy but a blanket statement:

    All I have to say is 'We are legion, We are anonymous, Expect other words we are the public that will use all resources at our disposal to effect change...even if it means selling short on Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan.

    Oh? You think that the 'everyone' is incapable of forcing their economic strength on the downfall of the few? Think again! The beauty of the stock market, its elegance lies within the truth of quants, and the black boxes they share, which can never be accounted for by the human equation. This is why, with the help of quants, unions and the disenfranchised 'We are legion, We are anonymous and you better fucking expect us'.

    That's the level of commitment. The heart of health is getting out of the two party system.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
  21. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    No no, you are absolutely right. You have no idea what I have lived with and how long I have waited for something like this. I just see this as something that seems to be, too little, too late. I hope and I hope. If, at the very least, we can prevent WWIII, which is on the horizon, and is planned by some in the upper echelons in power, than I suppose it will be all worth it. NOT IN OUR NAME!

    What To Do? What can we as Individuals do to Free Ourselves and our Country?

    Semper Fi: Marines Coming To Protect Protesters On Wall Street

    America: More Than a Failed Dictatorship
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
  22. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    You have nothing to lose.
  23. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Something that's been demonstrated time and again is that before you can get out of a two party system, you have to get out of the 'First Past the Post' electoral system, because irrespective of how many third parties you start with, First Past the Post invariably leads to a 'two party' situation.

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