Homosexuality & Anterior hypothalamus

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by ArtofWar, Dec 20, 2005.

  1. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    Out of hundreds of thousands of men I've worked with, none till today has identied as 'heterosexual'. There is just no concept of it. I call them straight because they are what the term signifies --- the regular, mainstream men.

    Some men (can't say, maybe 2% or 3%) have identified as gay --- they were all feminine gendered --- some less than others. Practically none of them approached me for counseling through my work with the mainstream community. It's my brief work with the gay community which made these men come to me for counseling.

    Most of the issues arising out of same-sex needs have been raised by the 'homosexuals', Although a significant proportion of straight men have hinted at it indirectly. Many have hinted at having sex with other men. Only a few straight men have sought counseling on their sexual attraction for men.

    Like I said, if you go by my observation 95% of the straight population (none is heterosexually identified) has exhibited, albeit indirectly an interest in other men.

    In my country, relationships between a gay male (who is considered a third sex) and a man is not considered same-sex. It is considered equivalent to heterosexuality, because it is between a half-female and a straight man.
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  3. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    Let me read the study before I can comment!
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  5. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    So you have counseled hundreds of thousands of men? Isn't that an unusual number? Or do you mean a couple hundred OUT OF thousands?

    Look up some human sex-attractant research. Or I will see if I can find the exact article.
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  7. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    I have worked with hundreds and thousands of men, not counselled all of them. But I have counselled a number of men too (remember, I don't counsel them on sexual attractions or feelings for most of the time). I counsel them on various psycho-sexual problems --- you know the basic kinds. I have also done a number of relationship counseling and stuff. In the sexual health camps that we organise, sometimes I talk with 200 men in a day --- a lot of the query is about pre-mature ejaculation.
  8. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    Now, as far as the neurological differences that supposedly exist to differentiate between gay and straight:

    I know at least one young man personally who claims to have always known and felt that he was attracted to his own gender. I have heard many other people claim they were born that way, because they consciously remember being attracted to and having "crushes" on their own gender.

    I consciously remember having crushes on girls in my childhood, that is, the opposite gender. I remember how fun I thought it was to chase them around and attempt to kiss them!
    When I look back on it, I almost feel that I did that simply because it was expected. Not necessarily that I was being pressured or felt intimidated into it, because I was in elementary school at the time and was not all that aware of anything else.
    What I mean by expected is that it was just "known" that you are automatically attracted to the opposite sex. I feel I was more than anything, just emulating my gender model, what was expected of me. And liking girls was what I was supposed to do. I was never told that it was okay to have desires for other boys.
    Though I do also distinctly remember acting out semi-erotically during normal playtime with other boys. Sometimes it would involve role-playing, where one person would assume the role of the opposite gender.

    Sometime after puberty, when I naturally became more sexually developed and my sexuality went from being vague, childish, ill-defined, and sporadic, to being more adult-like and focused, my sexual feelings for women increased. And as I found out soon enough, besides finding my own body and genitalia more attractive (why wouldn't I have?), I also became more attracted and interested in others of my own gender and their similar genitalia.

    I can easily say that for a few years in my early teens, I was effectively bisexual. Obviously admitting any interest in my own gender was "gay" and if you did that you were a "faggot" so I just openly talked about women.

    For some reason after that, my attraction towards my own gender surpassed that of the opposite, and although I cannot pinpoint any single cause of that, I do know that I began to find them (women) too artificial and too different looking.
    The contrast between both things became more apparent, and one began to look more foreign and just unappealing, while that which was more familiar (my OWN gender) became more appealing.
    I remember specifically looking at an adult magazine that had both a young man and a young woman. The young man, honestly, was more natural looking and more familiar to me, and thus more appealing, but the woman was typically smothered in make-up and all that other bullshit that SUPPOSEDLY makes women more attractive. When I think about that image, it is little wonder at all to me that I preferred my own gender.

    And as far as opposites attracting each other, do people actually LIKE to hang around people that ANNOY them or have nothing at all in common with them? Don't we find it easier to hang out with people who have similar tastes in music, politics, humor, etc?
    Does a black man like Bobby McFerrin (a rather talented vocalist) enjoy hanging out with ghetto negroids who listen to violent rap music, refer to women as bitches, and in general glorify a detestable and lowly form of existence?
    Or does he rather enjoy the company of others who are more similar to his own kind?
    A rather exaggerated contrast, I admit, but the difference between men and women can often be stark, especially when society engineers control structures to accentuate those differences, and insist that women use so many artificial decorations to make themselves both different and attractive.

    So therefore, how can someone say that I am a DEVIANT for liking something that is similar and familiar to me? Why is it okay in all other circumstances to like your own kind or be attracted to like minds and ideas, but when it comes to physical attraction, you suddenly become a mistake, a scourge, a disease, a lost and confused individual centered only on "self" and not "other"? As if opposite-gender attractions are somehow superior by the very virtue of their outward polarities!

    And how does the hypothalamus (or any other biological study) explain the difference between people who claim to have always been "gay" and those such as myself who went from a vague pseudo-bisexuality (leaning toward heterosexuality) to more defined bisexuality in adolescence, and finally to emerge as predominantly attracted to my own gender?
    How does it explain people gravitating between one gender and the other during their lives, or remaining constantly attracted to both for the majority of their lives?
  9. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    Incredible insight!

    I read a bit of that study you were talking about (the pheromones one!), and could not find out much. I am going to be out for one or two days (no access to internet!). Probably I'll not have the time to analyse the said research before that. Till then, I can tell you one thing that I have known from my own work --- one basic principle:

    Masculine gendered men are a distinct group from feminine gendered men, whoever they might be attracted to. Both the groups are distinct from women.

    While it is not possible that there will be a biological mechanism inside someone that finds his outer sex and then matches his sexual attraction according to that sex (i.e. a gay gene), and not possible that the desire of a masculine gendered man for a man be similar to the desire of a feminine gendered male for a man or to the desire of a woman for a man --- the three would be different in nature and character and will have different sources.......it is possible that some aspects (not the source) of this desire is the same in one or more of the above three groups.

    Just like a masculine gendered man can be a vegetarian, a feminine gendered man can be a vegetarian and a woman can be a vegetarian. Some of the ways in which their brain responds to vegetarian food or to meat may be the same. E.g. all of them may cringe at the sight of meat. But that does not mean that they become a community or one gender group or one biological group. Unless of course the society persecutes vegetarianism and then the three groups come together at one platform on account of social persecution.
  10. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    Well, thank you! I enjoyed writing it.

    I think I see what you are getting at here.

    Do read the pheromone studies. They're quite interesting.

    Homosexual men respond to male sweat derivatives in a similar way to women. That would seem to isolate them as a separate group, if it truly applies to all who are predominantly same-gender attracted.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2006
  11. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    I find it particularly interesting that the scents derived from gay men were least preferred by straight men and women and lesbians. Maybe the faggots should go live on an island?

    Being a little more serious, it doesn't totally account for bisexuality or transexuality. Or people rapidly changing their predominant sexual attraction.

    What is the difference between someone like myself who went from finding the opposite, then both genders, then finally the same gender most attractive, and someone who claims to have known their entire life they were gay?

    This I have no answer for.
  12. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    Not having read the entire study, to comment on what you said above, if this is reason for isolating them in a separate group, then I'm sure, women, for the same reason should also be put in this group --- if how they react to 'scents' is the sole criteria.

    A much more convincing study has identified a gene that makes women want multiple sex partners, in about 20% of women. This obviously is a major distinguishing factor and is not just a 'brain response'. I don't see the heterosexual society or its science separating such women into a separate group 'whores'!

    Like someone said, We are all unique in our make up, all different from others. We'll share some qualities with one group, other qualities with another. What qualities should be picked to group us up socially? What should be the basis of our social classification? The answer is our natural identities. At least our basic social identity should be our gender identity. Sexual identity is useless. One can have sexual preferences, loosely as one's 'interests', (like one likes vegetarian or non-vegetarian foods) without having it transformed into an identity.

    Because humans feel gender as an identity. They don't feel their sexual needs as a matter of identity. When you like a man or a woman, you don't feel like, hey I'm feeling homosexual love for this man or I'm feeling heterosexual love for this woman. You just feel attraction, that is it.

    But most people are aware of being a man or a woman as an identity.
  13. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    Thought of the day:

    If biology doesn't really support same-sex desires, and such desires are indeed an anomaly, a weakening factor that somehow maintained to survive till the present times, then how come men who exhibit strong same-sex desires (especially 'straight' men) are amongst the most powerful, most macho, best looking, with the best of talents, and best social skills, and superior sexual aura than the others.

    Surely, nature can't be so stupid as to invest so much into individuals that are not supposed to be there in the first place.
  14. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    First of all, the pheromones are not a source or 'cause' of same-sex attractions --- they are merely an effect.

    So there is no question of this accounting for any kind of 'sexual orientation'.

    (there is actually nothing like 'same-sex attractions' --- there is a strong gender element in sexual orientation, i.e. people are attracted to either masculine (straight) men or feminine men, ditto for women)
  15. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member


    Apparently Dr. Savic is quoted as saying that it is not clear whether it is cause or effect. Thing is, I don't think her quote about the results being ambiguous is mentioned in most of the releases of the story. I only read that in a NARTH article about the findings. And of course, they certainly don't want to see any biological basis for homosexuality, because that would undermine their whole agenda.

    I believe that very possibly, the brain has conditioned itself to respond in the way it does. The brain is a very unusual organ at times.

    It does not explain people who have reported to have changed gender-preference in a very short amount of time, or over a longer period. They go from being strongly homosexual to strongly heterosexual, or vice versa. I have even heard of people going back and forth more than once!

    And of course, that doesn't talk about people who are in between. Would the centers of the brain for BOTH pheromones be activated? Most in-depth sexuality studies have attempted to take into account a range of sexual preference, not just report on self-identification of gay or straight.

    Kinsey reported nearly 40% of men had had some type of homosexual experience or attraction at one time. 10% of those men had reported being predominantly same-sex attracted for several years. Around 4% of them reported being predominantly same-sex attracted for life. What happened to everyone in between??? How did the numbers get whittled away to a mere 4%?
    A later assessment of Kinsey's data that excluded the inmate population, came up with nearly 14% of males having a fairly strong degree of bisexuality to exclusive homosexuality.

    Why the big discrepancy between those reporting same-sex attractions at one point, and those reporting continual attractions throughout life? These more detailed studies do not use an "either you're gay, or you're straight" methodology. Instead they catalog a spectrum from one to the other.
    The pheromone test makes it appear as if those men identifying as gay are subconsciously women in men's bodies. It appears to be a permanent brain state. It does not make sense when you consider the Kinsey data and other studies that show same-sex attractions on a scale of intensity, and also shows people periodically moving on that scale, sometimes dramatically.

    And if BOTH siblings in a pair of identical twins are not both homosexual more than half the time (I believe the percentage is actually lower), this proves that there is more to it than biology. I only wonder how such a pair where one is gay and the other not would perform on this pheromone test if it's indeed hard-wired.

    All of that seems to indicate that the subconscious response to male and female hormones is more of a learned response. Otherwise it does not make sense with any of the other studies on psychology and biology.
  16. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    Why would gay men prefer their own scent more? It isn't just a difference between male and female, but something that was identifiable to men who prefer men who prefer men.
    Is the change in body chemistry present from childhood? Is it something about the mental and emotional state of their attraction that affects the contents of their sweat?
    If people can radically change their sexual preferences, and this in turn affects their response to pheromones (which may be likely), then does this mean that many people have the "programming" for BOTH responses, but that for one reason or another, one dominates?

    Just some questions.
  17. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    How many of them are macho, with the best looks and best talents?

    Just wondering if you have some statistics.
  18. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    None of the gays are macho.......'gay' and 'machismo' are two opposite qualities. Amongst the straight population, if my observations and evidences from various sources including history of 'machismo' and from the 'masquaraded' macho spaces of today are any indication that almost 100% of macho guys have a strong same-sex desire.

    Although, I'd also say that this desire is not just same-'sex'. It is also same-'gender'. That is, most of these guys can sexually appreciate or desire (albeit secretly) mainly masculine gendered guys.
  19. ArtofWar Registered Senior Member

    First off, tell me where there is conclusive data that Men and Women react to or are stimulated by pheromones? You can find much data on INSECTS even stretching it to mammals, but Primates?? This is fantasy made up by the discovery channel!

    If the aforementioned were true than Budda1 could seduce you into one violent butt-fucking, simply by catering to you delicate chocolates a glass or two of fine wine and lather himself with a $200 dollar perfume full of pheromones and the hormone estrogen.

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  20. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    Should I be taking you seriously? Especially about the chocolates and the wine?
  21. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    Artofwar tried that and failed to get any response. Eversince he has been convinced that the pheromones are an eyewash!
  22. ArtofWar Registered Senior Member

    LoL stop your rhetoric, if you go back and read my posts i never state Pheromones as a form of as a physical stimulus. You are wrong, go back to bed old man.

    Only if you take your own ideas of pheromone sseriously

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    , other than that i see no need.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2006
  23. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    Ssseriousssly, you mussst be a ssssnakeoid!

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    Well, they weren't my ideas to begin with, I frankly am unsure what to think, but it seems you haven't done too much reading on it lately.

    The first one is older.

    This one is the more recent one involving gay men

    Do YOU take that seriously? Other than that, i see no need.

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