How to spot misogynists and misandrists

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by wegs, Jan 17, 2020.

  1. Bells Staff Member

    Your initial comment was about incels:
    Your first article that you linked, from GQ Magazine for your research addresses misogyny and the comments about childhood trauma or abuse:

    “Even in a nurturing family, a child will grow up with chauvinism,” says Jukes. “Culture and society are the seedbed where the child’s misogyny takes root. The construction of the woman as the carer is all around us, and that is part of what informs men’s rage with women. In my millennial patients I don’t see any difference to patients I was seeing decades ago.”

    Masculinity, then, appears on a sliding scale, usually depending on a boy’s childhood environment and trauma. All children experience negativity, with indifference or neglect at one end and physical or sexual abuse at the other, and the more painful childhood is, the more likely a boy is to emerge as “hyper-masculine”. Meanwhile, the more masculine a boy is, the more he represses his feelings about women, so the more misogynistic and abusive he is likely to be. This also works in reverse, with hyper-masculine men also more likely to be emotionally vulnerable, even helpless.

    On the subject of incels:

    Incels – the online subculture of self-loathing “involuntary celibates” who define themselves through their inability to find love or a sexual partner – fit this misogynistic pattern very neatly. Paradoxically, these self-proclaimed losers also exhibit a kind of hyper-masculinity. The cultish nature of incels is not an aberration but an extension of male psychological development: a need to control mixed with a sense of humiliation. It’s always someone else’s fault – in the case of incels, it begins with a belief that genetics has dealt them a bad hand. Damn you, Mother Nature.

    “The rage and righteousness against women represent one felt injustice after another,” says Jukes. “Incels’ basic premise of ‘She won’t let me fuck her’ is about as straightforward an Oedipal statement as you can make.”

    The biggest take away from the GQ article you linked was in how to combat sexism and misogyny - involves breaking away from the notion that women and mothers are the care givers and the father is the dominant one who is working to take care of the family, and instead looking at a shared and equal household, where the child grows up seeing shared and equal responsibility.

    You know, getting rid of the inherent and ingrained belief that women are less than, have to stay home and care for the kids while the man goes out and works, etc.. Misogyny has its roots in that power and male dominant state.

    Your second article "Mother wound as the missing link" - essentially blames misogyny on patriarchy but somehow or other blames women and mothers for misogyny and patriarchy.. You can understand how this is problematic, yes?

    Your third link does not really address the comment you made about incels and childhood trauma. Instead, it addresses some of the root causes of misogyny.

    Note should also be made of the fact that incels who have gone on to kill women, were not from abusive households.
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Oh well...that's it for me... have fun..
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  5. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    As stated in my prior post, I stated incels -who have a deep hatred for women etc - which I personally equate to misogyny. Not all incels are misogynists which is why I selected the articles on the topic of misogyny.

    The OT really isn’t about incels, it’s about misogyny and misandry but many people view incels as having misogynist-like qualities. Either way, I have always been curious as to what makes people think as they do.

    There is a lot that needs to be done in terms of research about misogyny and where it stems from, but I believe dysfunctional childhoods might play a role as to why misogyny and misandry exists.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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  7. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    I wanted to add as well, that I could have done a better job of finding more relevant articles to what I was hopeful of sharing - which is merely to point out that misogyny and misandry could have origins in early childhood development, where kids may have seen dysfunctional parent relationships, or they themselves were abused, etc. I know this is sometimes the case for psychopathy. This isn't to suggest however, that misogyny and misandry aren't choices. It's a choice to hate and hold a prejudice of an entire group of people, whether it be about race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or gender. But, what causes people to become hateful, potentially violent inidividuals towards an entire group of people, is perhaps speculative, at best. (I didnt mean to imply or suggest that I have conclusive evidence directly linking misogyny to a specific root cause.)
    Quantum Quack likes this.
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    I can see that as a problem, but the victim is not the only witness. The accused and family/friends are often aware. - enough to get close to the truth for a sufficient body of cases to analyze. Nonetheless, I see your point.
  9. Bells Staff Member

    There seems to be this desire to not offend here. Your comment, which is the one I addressed, spoke directly about incels. So you understand my raised eyebrows when you responded about misogynists primarily to my request for supporting materials to the comment you made about incels in particular?

    Misogyny is not just hatred. I'll give you an example - a man who is an incel and first his views about "incels" like Rodger:

    Michael has nothing but scorn for Rodger, not just because of his senseless, horrific crimes, but also because his behavior demonizes chronically celibate men. Guys who can't get women aren't just losers and weirdos anymore. Now they're losers, weirdos, and potential monsters. This contributes to a climate where, as Michael sees it, it's better to "just keep quiet, because otherwise you can be misinterpreted in all sorts of negative ways."

    By any interpretation, he would be one of those incels who doesn't hate women, right?

    But then, he goes on to say this:

    "The bulk of my anger is over the fact that virtually all women are dishonest to the point that even they themselves believe the lies they tell."

    "The reality, and I make no apologies for saying this, is that the modern woman is an impossible to please, shallow, superficial creature that is only attracted to shiny things, e.g. looks and money…."

    "I think feminism is the most destructive force in history."

    Misogyny is not just about hating women. Michael is deeply misogynistic. Not only are his views stereotypical and sexist, but he also dehumanises women to being a 'creatures', dishonest, deceitful, etc.. Such negative views of women is quite common in the incel community.
    I think linking misogyny and misandry as being similar is wrong, personally. For reasons I linked in my previous post.

    We know where it stems from and its history. Think back to Aristotle as a prime example. Religious texts and historical writings are misogynistic. A patriarchal society that treated women as chattels moving to our current times where men see fit to determine our rights and attempt to deny us our bodily autonomy, to victim blaming and shaming when a woman is raped, as prime examples of where misogyny stems from.

    Misogyny stems from society. It's in our laws, social customs, religious customs, etc..

    Articles linked and studies support misogyny and to a lesser extent, misandry, stemming from childhood. But it's not so much from abusive childhood as it is from systemic bombardment of negative and sexist stereotypes about women and it is pervasive.
  10. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    See your doctor. Tell your doctor what you said above and that you want to kill yourself. Maybe your doctor will prescribe psychoactive drugs.

    Your life could change in a week.

    Is Trump chad? I can't believe any woman would want to have sex with him unless it was for money.

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  11. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    @ Bells - It seems that you may want me to accept something I’ve posted, that I didn’t. My post specifically mentioned incels who are abusive to women, or have a deep rooted hatred for them. I wasn't generalizing all incels to be this or that, rather only those who display misogynistic traits, thus my links about misogyny. I believe that men who are abusive, hateful and have a general disdain for women to be misogynists - and some of those, self-identify as incels.

    And in my post, I didn't suggest that misogyny only stems from childhood trauma. So, I'm not sure how to defend statements that I didn't post.

    I agree with your thoughts on where and how misogyny started, and why it has flourished. Society, culture, certain religions, peers, etc are all possible reasons. Quite frankly, overall apathy towards misogyny, can also be a possible culprit. The old “boys will be boys” societal default position.

    ''The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.'' - Edmund Burke
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Or a general hatred of men/women kind.
    I fortuitously just happened to see a harrowing story yesterday about a young bloke called Gregory Smith. The story is around 30 minutes long and does have a happy and incredible ending.
    I hope you [and others] take the time to watch it......
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    I just want to check in, here, that—

    • we really are so simplistically juxtaposing misogyny and misandry, and

    • we really are taking the misandry article from the topic post seriously?​
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Thank you so much for offering this link.
    A strong statement about consequences of "Abuse of power" whether that be gender based, societal based or self based and how this can translate into further abuse, anger and self destruction.

    But also the amazing resilience and determination of a man to find himself after being so shattered...
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

    I don't think there's a significant difference between them any more. The words certainly mean different things, and I imagine there could be someone who merely considers themselves celibate not by their choice - but sees no problem with women. (And indeed, the term incel started as invcel, a term created by a woman to talk about her condition.)

    But I haven't seen much evidence of such people lately.
  16. Bells Staff Member

    Okay, this is what I was addressing when I asked you to support your claim:

    And I know that is what I was addressing specifically, because that is the sentence I quoted when I asked you to support that claim.

    You responded by linking articles from 3 different sites, none of which addressed what you had initially said.

    I am well aware of the type of incel you were referring to, because I literally quoted you saying what type of incel you meant.
    So when you then responded with:

    You still failed to support the initial claim and the kind of incel you meant.. "Studies have shown that incels who use abusive language about and towards women, and have a deep rooted hatred of them, usually stem from some type of childhood trauma".. That is not supported by the 'research' you linked from GQ magazine and the other websites. The incels we know of, who used such language about and towards women, and who went on to kill, suffered no childhood trauma.

    That is why I queried your comments and then change of subject if one could describe it as that.

    Which begs the question.. Why have you lumped it in with misandry?

    Women are harassed on the street, in the classroom, at work. We’re assaulted in clubs, on the tube, on the bus. We’re raped in our bedrooms. We’re murdered in our homes.

    While no one would seek to deny or diminish the impact of violent crimes and harassment against men, before misandry is considered a hate crime, serious questions need to be asked about whether it fits the definition. Does misandry intimidate, instill fear in, and seek to control men in a community? Are men repeat victims of misandry? Is misandry a tool used to prevent men from living their lives freely, and from taking up public space? Is a violent crime against men an incitement to commit violence against all men? Does misandry limit men’s opportunities, and stop them from enjoying the full benefits of our society, leading to segregation and isolation?

    That article questions making misandry a hate crime in the UK - comparable to misogyny and in connection to that, the incel movement that openly advocates for harming and killing women and girls. Does misandry do any of that, so much so that it is comparable to misogyny? Compare it to the list Mr Woodcock has, that you linked in your OP..

    The reason I am asking this is because misogyny is not just about hatred. It is about the continued domination of women, within the public and private realm of our lives, be it over how we live to our own bodies. It is connected because women are deemed less than our male counterparts. We have less power and it feeds into misogyny, just as misogyny feeds into the continued denial of our rights. In other words, the abortion debate would not exist and we would have our fundamental human rights without having to fight for it in court, if we were considered equal.. Misogyny is also about a belief that we are less than, are valued less and worth less and it ties in with hatred quite well. After all, misogyny is also about the ingrained injustice and unjust treatment of women.. So when you lump misogyny in with misandry, you can see how the two cannot be compared, yes?

    The only people who stand to gain or who push the whole misogyny and misandry are the same, are the men's only rights advocates who support and demand the current patriarchal system remains in place.
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Do you have any studies to support your claim?
    I would be interested in reading studies that rule out child hood trauma.
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    The backgrounds of a number of high-profile incel killers are on the public record. Why assume they suffered childhood trauma if there's no evidence for it?
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Well then it should be easy to support the claim...
    If a link to a report, study or research that states that there is no child hood trauma involved in the child to adult development of misogynistic behavior in extreme cases can be provided I would be keenly interested in reading it.
    After 30 odd years of casual searching I have yet to find anyone prepared to state such a claim... but perhaps I have missed something...
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  20. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    I’ve been a victim of misogyny both in my personal and professional life. I’ve been outspoken about it on this site, in other thread topics. That said, I’m not an expert on what causes it, and this thread was to post articles that caught my attention. My own experiences of being raised in a patriarchal household and society, doesn’t mean that I don’t believe women can be capable of hating and hurting men, albeit in different ways. I’m not lumping the two together, merely starting a discussion thread on the topic of both.

    This is my personal belief, but people who hurt others, are usually hurting inside, themselves. This doesn’t mean we excuse bad behaviors and crimes, it just helps to see the possible factors that lead people to harm others - emotionally or physically. Of the men I’ve known personally, who have exhibited misogynistic and/or narcissistic traits, they suffered childhood trauma, which included neglect, abuse and a parental paradigm whereby their mothers were mistreated by their dads. I’ve also known women who have mistreated good men in their relationships and while it might not be connected to misandry, that doesn’t mean it’s an impossible factor.

    I don’t believe misandry should be made a hate crime as doing so may embolden abusive men to use it as an excuse for their behaviors against women. That doesn’t mean that misandry doesn’t exist. Just because I’ve been a victim of misogyny doesn’t mean I can’t imagine that men could ever be victims of women. I don’t believe however that it’s on the same scale as misogyny in terms of how misogyny has negatively impacted women, and society as a whole. Honestly, misogyny hurts men as well because it creates a societal rift between how women are to perceive men. In other words, it has poisoned the well.

    It’s worth exploring and discussing because that’s how we learn and grow.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  21. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Is it a part of culture to wear a burqa?
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    A good topic... perhaps you could start another thread on it...

    As a thought provoker imagine what it would be like for women who live in isolated desert settings 1000 years ago where there is no secular law enforcement.
    How does a woman gain protection from unwanted aggressive male advances?
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  23. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    We don’t have to imagine back 1000 years; it’s still happening today in parts of the Middle East and elsewhere.

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