Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    addendum;
    https://psych.athabascau.ca/html/Psych402/Biotutorials/1/microtubules.shtml

    Neurofilaments (NF)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofilament
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Why can't you just ask a simple question without needing to gratuitously add an ad hominem?

    And you are still wrong. It's the microtubules (cytoskeleton) that shape the neurons.
    Without microtubules you would be an indistinct bag of cells, unable to even perform cell division. It's the microtubules that keep you standing upright !

    When you look at a representation of a cell, microtubules are never shown because they would obscure all other organelles inside a cell. The cytoplasm inside a cell is filled with thousands of microtubules.

    I have shown electron microscope pictures showing the incredible fractal microtubular structures inside cell cytoplasm. The microtubular branching is so dense, it obscures all other organelles inhabiting the cell.

    And this is what they can do;
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Do they whiten your teeth and freshen your breath, too?
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Watch the video of electron microscopic pictures of the dynamic role microtubules and stuctures play in the survival of the organism at nano scales. It's truly awesome to see such dynamic survival mechanisms at that normally "unseen" level of living systems, all using microtubules for "motility" and thus giving the organism a survival advantage.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    And they give you super strength! And are normally invisible! Truly there is nothing that microtubules cannot do for you. All hail the mighty microtubule!
     
  9. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    I thought that our bones took care of that.

    You seem to me to be obsessed with microtubules, W4U.

    One could as easily argue that proteins are the secret of life, because so many functional bit of cells are made of proteins. Proteins work like gritty little nanomachines, serving as enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions, as structural components, as little gates and pumps on the cell membrane, as identity markers for immune reactions, and many other functions. Even microtubules are made of proteins. Coding for proteins is what genes are primarily about.

    If you look a a representation of a cell, there's usually only a handful (often just one) of any organelle. That's for simplicity sake.

    OK W4U. Microtubules are cool. They are more interesting than I gave them credit for being, prior to meeting you.

    But they aren't the secret of life itself. And I remain damnably unconvinced that they have anything to do with consciousness, apart from their playing an active role in neurons.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And yet another interestig perspective of neural information procesing and transmission.

    Microtubule Motor Proteins (good stuff..

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    .)


     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Consciousness may well be an evolved self-referential awarenessness of the values and meaning of transmitted electro-chemical sensory information.

    As Anil Seth proposes : brains make "best guesses" about the information it receives based on comparison with stored cognitive memories. But those are subjective experiences . And not always correct.]
    But the network can also learn, by storing new information based on "experience". Eventually this self-referential processing aspect of electro-chemical afferent experience and efferent physical responses, HAS to lead to ever greater sophistication and refinement for an emergent ability for non-survival oriented abstract concepts, such as "what if " questions and what is possible based on the know "hard facts" consciousness is just another emergent mathematical aspect of biological sensory evolution" ........

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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Guess what system regulates the formation of bone? Microtubules....

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    You bet. They are fundamental dipolar structures dynamically self-assembled from a dimer of two simple tubulins . They seem to function as a electro-chemical control mechanism in one form or another in all living Eukariotic organisms. This common denominater and the emergent relative levels of "awareness' the more complex this neural network becomes.

    I am not arguing against the term "neural network". I also have no objection to the term "electrical network" . But that doesn't mean much unless you can demonstrate what it does and how it does it, the active components, such as the dynamically self-assembling microtubular "neural highways".

    MT, a perfectly adapted nano scale dipolar coil, a completely naturally occurring biological self-assembling pattern that is potentially ideally suited to the reception and transmission of electro-chemical information, the "aware" experience of that information is our state of consciosness, no?

    Worth looking into?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Hail the dynamic biological growth mechanics and consistency of data processing, that allowed for all other mental potentials to become expressed "in time".

    It meets the requirement of a fundamental, effectively simple and constant dynamically controllable mathematical biological pattern suitable for "self-referential information transmission", and by extension the ability for evolved sef-aware experiencing of this process.

    If we can just prove that one hard fact then all other questions, including possible medical applications will be answered as well. This is as big as religion..

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    Hail science!...

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    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you Yazata, for those generous words. I'm doing the best I can in promoting research in this area. The implications may be staggering in scope.

    Someboy should make a microtubule smiley...hehe.

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  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    OK, billvon, what do you have to say about that?
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You do.
     
  17. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    What's more conscious, a hydrogen atom or a water molecule?

    :edit: Maybe a hydrogen atom or oxygen one?
     
  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    More nonsense.
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps you might read my previous reply to that question. (Or not; up to you.)
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You just questioned his use of the term "atomic" Are you going to let him off the hook and transfer that comment as originating from me and calling it "bilge".
    Billvon, you realize exchemist unwittingly accused you of spouting "bilge". What do you have to say about that?
    Yes it does. If microtubules are not present there is no information processing. Your logic is atrocious.
    You're just getting caught up in your own confusion.
    You're completely missing the point. Everything above is correct except it neglects to stipulate that the part of the neuron that does the actual work are the microtubules inside the neuron. MTs perform the transmission of "afferent" and "efferent" electrochemical signals. They are like the copper wires in an electrical cable. We also say electrical cables transmit and fire electrical impulses. But the part of the electrical cable that does the work is the copper wire. And so it is with microtubules inside the neuronal cell body and axons and synapses.

    Synapses are fed and fire information received from microtubules!!!! Do you see the analogy to electric wires within electric cables and electric connectors?

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    Actin microfilaments are the main cytoskeletal

    components present at both presynaptic and postsynaptic terminals in glutamatergic synapses. However, in the last few years it has been demonstrated that microtubules (MTs) transiently invade dendritic spines, promoting their maturation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

    Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations

    Abstract
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2


    I suggest to familiarize yourself with microtubules at a deeper level. The more you learn about this little coil, the more sense it makes that MTs have to be the "workhorses" of biological cells.
    The fact that Microtubule motor-processors are a common denominator of all Eukaryotic organisms makes it the only (remaining) candidate for any consideration about consciousness.

     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The Presynaptic Microtubule Cytoskeleton in Physiological and Pathological Conditions: Lessons from Drosophila Fragile X Syndrome and Hereditary Spastic Paraplegias

    Abstract

    The capacity of the nervous system to generate neuronal networks relies on the establishment and maintenance of synaptic contacts. Synapses are composed of functionally different presynaptic and postsynaptic compartments. An appropriate synaptic architecture is required to provide the structural basis that supports synaptic transmission, a process involving changes in cytoskeletal dynamics. Actin microfilaments are the main cytoskeletal components present at both presynaptic and postsynaptic terminals in glutamatergic synapses.
    However, in the last few years it has been demonstrated that microtubules (MTs) transiently invade dendritic spines, promoting their maturation. Nevertheless, the presence and functions of MTs at the presynaptic site are still a matter of debate. Early electron microscopy (EM) studies revealed that MTs are present in the presynaptic terminals of the central nervous system (CNS) where they interact with synaptic vesicles (SVs) and reach the active zone. These observations have been reproduced by several EM protocols; however, there is empirical heterogeneity in detecting presynaptic MTs, since they appear to be both labile and unstable. Moreover, increasing evidence derived from studies in the fruit fly neuromuscular junction proposes different roles for MTs in regulating presynaptic function in physiological and pathological conditions. In this review, we summarize the main findings that support the presence and roles of MTs at presynaptic terminals, integrating descriptive and biochemical analyses, and studies performed in invertebrate genetic models.

    Introduction

    Every motor, cognitive, and association function executed by the nervous system relies on the establishment of neuronal networks that involve the generation, maintenance, and pruning of synaptic contacts. The animal nervous system possesses a diverse array of synapses characterized by their structure and chemical nature, but in general terms, a synaptic contact is defined as a junction between a presynaptic neuron and a postsynaptic cell, that can be another neuron, a muscle cell or a gland cell (Jessell and Kandel, 1993).
    At the subcellular level, synapses are composed of an axonal presynaptic terminal, that releases neurotransmitters in response to an action potential, and a postsynaptic terminal which receives and integrates the synaptic input (Garner et al., 2000; Südhof, 2012). The highly specialized structure and morphology of pre- and post-synaptic assembly depends on several factors, including cytoskeleton dynamics. Actin microfilaments are the major cytoskeletal component of glutamatergic synapses in mature neurons. In presynaptic terminals, actin regulates synaptic vesicle (SV) pool dynamics, including their mobilization to the active zone, endocytosis, and exocytosis, as well as providing a scaffolding system for the spatial organization of regulatory elements in the nerve terminal (Colicos et al., 2001; Shupliakov et al., 2002; Sankaranarayanan et al., 2003). The actin cytoskeleton is also highly enriched in postsynaptic dendritic spines, where it regulates spinogenesis and the structural plasticity observed in mature neurons in response to activity (Matus et al., 1982; Matus, 2000; Yuste and Bonhoeffer, 2004). In contrast, the presence and function of the synaptic microtubule (MT) cytoskeleton is barely beginning to be understood.

    During the last decade, the transient invasion of MTs to a small percentage of dendritic spines in mature neurons in response to synaptic activity has been demonstrated (Hu et al., 2008; Jaworski et al., 2009). MTs entry into dendritic spines promotes their stabilization through the recruitment of the postsynaptic protein-95 (PSD-95; Hu et al., 2011) and the activation of NMDA glutamate receptors (Merriam et al., 2011). These findings set a turning point from the widespread notion that MTs are absent from dendritic spines, a notion based on the technical difficulties of detecting MTs at postsynaptic terminals by electron microscopy (EM; Gray et al., 1982; Landis and Reese, 1983; Fiala et al., 2003), despite the fact that MT had been detected in dendritic shaft by several different techniques (Caceres et al., 1983; Spacek and Harris, 1997; Kaech et al., 2001).

    However, the presence and function of MTs at presynaptic terminals are beginning to be understood, supported by evidence derived from studies performed mainly in vertebrate central synapses and in neuromuscular junctions (NMJ) of Drosophila larvae.

    In this review, we will summarize the ultrastructural and biochemical data that endorse the notion of a presynaptic MT cytoskeleton in vertebrate synapses, and the MT-dependent regulation of presynaptic structure and physiology at NMJs in Drosophila. Finally, we will address the use of the Drosophila NMJ as a model for the study of several neurodegenerative disorders that underlie MT cytoskeleton-related mechanisms in pathological conditions.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4958632/
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I won't waste my time on trivia. I'll leave that up to you.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    A better question would be is a H2O molecule "wet"?
     

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