ISIS Burns 45 Iraqi Captives to Death in Al Baghdadi

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Yazata, Feb 17, 2015.

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Actually, ISIS, might be an "anti-end of time" cult and the majority of advanced nations be the true "end of time" organizations. I.e. ISIS wants to return people to middle ages or earlier live styles. That would greatly reduce the main threat (if nuclear WWIII is not) to human existence. Namely terminate the ever increasing rate of CO2 release that is greatly stimulating the rate of CH4 release, with the highly probably result of extinction before 2100 for all warm-blooded animals but the very tiny mice that live under ground in burrows during the day where the temperature is the diurnal average. Also their relatively huge surface to volume ratio make it much easier for them to dump their metabolic heat to the environment than for man who must dump ~100W, while just sitting in a chair reading a book or watching TV.

    More details on "Intelligent" man's self destructive behavior in post 1710 here:
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2015
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  3. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    Using Iraq as an example (and the beginings of ISIL)

    So yes there is a literacy/education issue. But that is irrelevant to the current situation because if ISIS/ISIL completes its agenda, 30% illiteracy will seem like the good old days... well that is in any reading other than the Qu'ran....

    What I am saying is you've jumped ahead in the game. We've seen in Afghanistan the burning down of schools built since the over throw of the taliban, which brings us back to muslims needing to stop the extremists within and together. Islam itself is to blame. The infallibility of Mohammad... and the circular reasoning that is Islam.
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    However I believe you may have missed my point.

    Why would the Muslim population seek to stop the end times scenario IS appears to be playing out?

    They (IS) maybe, after all, only doing what the good book says regarding end times.

    Muslims generally may be caught in their own religious doctrines regarding end times. Whether IS is fraud or not is unable to be determined due to the superstitious nature of many.
    And I might add, circular it is indeed and a factor we in the West need to accept and acknowledge to find a way of dealing with it.
    Education and religious evolution is not achieved over night... so to speak.

    In other words a solution has to come from the Muslim world (agreed!) however due to that circular reasoning you mention this is most likely not going to happen any time soon.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
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  7. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    OK so now what? Do we sit by and let the slaughter/enslavement etc continue?
    Quantum Quack likes this.
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Frankly given the nature of it there is not much we can do. The more we interfere the more they will respond to defend their end times cult belief and promote external (international) "Lone wolf " attacks as a result.

    If I recall correctly IS only became "international" in it's terrorist activities when the West (USA - Australia etc ), justifiably IMO, militarily intervened in their (IS) pursuit of genocide of the Yazidi August 2014

    As I mentioned before I tend to believe that IS as with most apocalyptic cults have a time in mind and when that passes with out predicted results it's recruited soldiers will have to deal with that question "What now?" more so than we do.
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Another significant incongruity/anomaly in IS behavior is that they have not taken Baghdad or at least seriously attempted to, when they have the means and capacity to infiltrate the city with large numbers of militants at whim. This factor immediately is very suggestive IMO.
    Suggestive again of a cult mentality that acts like a hive. Meaning that militants become less effective unless they remain connected to the main body. ( can't operate autonomously sort or thing)
    just thinking... sorry..
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
  10. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Sorry? Not at all, QQ, you're beginning to touch upon the heart of the matter. It is such a pity the majority of responses are so emotive, and deal only with surface events, and reactions to those events.
    It is perhaps an indication of where we are on this site (which, in itself, is indicative of a far more universal Western issue) that you feel the need to say you're sorry.

    Forget the "Lone Wolf" attacks. There are none. The West views a violent response as being the duty and prerogative of an organised military under the direction of a more powerful authority, and displays a tendency to view all action in terms of Western organisation. It is, unfortunately, more the West which has a tendency to respond as a "hive", rather than the militants (or, at least, as much as)... I know that might be a little difficult to digest, but it is my view. One only needs to look to how IS are "learning" the role of the media in the West to begin to understand their direction, and their burgeoning understanding of the world in which they've found themselves.
    Being forced to understand it, they might actually have a deeper understanding of it than we generally do.

    IS (if that is what we're referring to it as now) does not have unintelligent leadership. The most common mistake is to assume that IS are merely animals... rather than animals under the authority or a more intelligent leadership. This is not an aberration., It is life, and it is how the world operates. The leadership of IS understand exactly what it is they need to do in order to gain recognition and attention. And they are not bound by the finality of death in the same way as the West is.

    Ask yourself this. Would you, or nearly anyone else, have ever undertaken to study understand Islam were it not forced into prominent view?
    How many articles in the media now focus upon Islam? How many, as a result, now focus upon understanding Islam?
    It is
    In. Your. Face.

    I have done so, myself. Surrendered to that demand. I've read, read, and read. Spoken to people. This is something I would never have done as little as 5 years ago.
    Well. Islam is not an unattractive religion, by any means. It is... seductive. The basic tenets of operation are, again on my view, far superior to any other religion I've taken the time to enquire about. It promotes thought, and understanding. It understands humanity. It promotes consideration of the "rules", as opposed to blind adherence to them.
    It also operates solely under the presupposition of belief, which is in direct conflict with Western thought and the sole impediment to me growing a beard and attending a Mosque (well, no, but allow me a little poetic leeway).
    And, unfortunately and as a final nail in the coffin, it relies upon humanity, with all the accompanying foibles and lack of intellect, to communicate itself. Islam actually recognises that humanity, in particular the humanity of those chosen to lead it, is fallible.

    I might write more upon this later, if I'm in the mood, but here is a parting thought:
    Islamic leadership, such as it is, is as much prone to error and to the misunderstanding and application of philosophy as any Western leadership.
    But it is wrong to assume we're as much to blame.

    Our hive mentality is little different from theirs.
    But it does allow one such as myself to exist.
    And you.
    And you.

    And you.
  11. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Do you know what the real crime is?

    It is to judge Islam not as people, but as a people.
    That is exactly where understanding is lost.

    It is incredibly difficult for me to say that without going into what an understanding of people actually entails; but then there we have the roots of science and philosophy themselves.
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Unfortunately education does not equal wisdom, in fact wisdom is available to all regardless of education and knowledge.


    yes surprisingly few...and those that have occurred are not really genuine lone wolf attacks IMO

    due to fear of loosing control perhaps...

    ah.. it is a matter of perspective, after all, is it not?

    well given we appear to have so little "real" understanding, this opinion could be sustained...certainly after they have finished digging up the sand pit they may indeed transcend those who reject or deny that they are in the same sand pit with them.

    this is a critical point that seem to be over looked in the West. There is nothing more compelling or effective than a suicide bomber with ambitions of martyrdom. And every member of IS is potentially that suicide bomber.

    Good point...

    This is a more moderate contemporary view of Islam I believe, and one that fortunately is predominate with in the Western Islamic communities.
    It is unfortunately not the view of the more extreme elements that do not recognize the term fallibility as far as I can tell.

    I had a long discussion with a Jordanian Muslim today, a security guard on his day off but working regardless due to the heightened security issue [shopping centers - yes we depend on him , a Muslim for our safety] His thoughts were most appreciated and he considers those that affronted the nation of Jordan are not even close to being Muslim, even the strict codes that they profess have no real bearing on Islam. His significant distress quite evident.
    Example: it is forbidden to burn a human being, even in death. Burial must be with out cremation etc.. [ according to him]
    So the act against the Jordanian pilot are in direct contradiction with even the strictest Muslim ideology.

    To be honest, I have long held the opinion since the 9/11 attacks on the USA that the incumbent President missed a tremendous opportunity when responding to the terrorism.

    He failed to ask the most important question:

    "What are we, as a nation doing to attract this sort of attack?"

    If available to be questioned I would have asked about his declared war on terror:
    How many terrorist do you think you will create with every terrorist you capture or kill?

    In essence as you mentioned or alluded to it is the inability of leaders to step into the shoes of their so called enemies that leads to their ultimate failure in terms of cost and lives.
    Their ability to empathize adequately, thoroughly blocked by their greed for resources, arrogance and quest for power.

    However in this instance I believe we are not dealing with terrorism, we are dealing with a global state of end times paranoia that the IS phenomena and it's success in recruitment is merely symptomatic of.

    IS is only highlighting a global community under stress of not wanting to accept that as a race we are in very deep shit. Unless this issue (paranoia) is attended to properly the worlds organizations will indeed fail to maintain control. as demonstrated by the IS phenomena. Chaos, globally, being the ultimate outcome. IMO
    Some of which is already seriously manifesting in our own Government and it's leadership. (Australia)
    Paranoia in simple form is "fear based speculation" in my understanding.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
  13. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

    It is seductive, and the Islamic call to prayer is beautiful. I down loaded it. I've been listening to it for years and I still enjoy it.

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  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I agree. Thanks, I had never heard it before. The illustrations of the video are beautiful too, especially the one that atomically loaded when your link finished.

    Many decades ago I was in DC, on K street as I recall, and went inside the main mosaic in my socks of course. They had the Koran in English and I read it for half an hour - that was all I could stand - it was so boring in the part I was reading. - page after page about cows is all I remember now.
  15. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    End time cults dont just wander away shrugging their shoulders "meh, i guess i was wrong". They move the goalposts.

    While ISis/il have an end times scenario and pieces of what they are doing is in line (as I understand it) with 'the end times', their motive is current time. Establishing a muslim state under a caliph... That goal/purpose cannot be dismissed and is forefront to the culmination of their 'end times' scenario.

    IS was plotting long before the attempted genocide/enslavement of the Yazidi tribes (touched on in the Atlantic article with the exchange about whether they are apostates or other and if apostate death, if other enslavement).

    From wiki:
    As Islamic State of Iraq (2006–2013)
    Main article: Islamic State of Iraq
    According to a study compiled by US intelligence agencies in early 2007, the ISI—also known as AQI—planned to seize power in the central and western areas of the country and turn it into a Sunni Islamic state.[76] The group built in strength and at its height enjoyed a significant presence in the Iraqi governorates of Al Anbar, Diyala and Baghdad, and claimed Baqubah as a capital city....
    On 16 May 2010, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was appointed as the new leader of the Islamic State of Iraq.[91][92] Al-Baghdadi replenished the group's leadership, many of whom had been killed or captured, by appointing former Ba'athist military and intelligence officers who had served during the Saddam Hussein regime.

    So anyways, I dont think 'they will have to deal with it when the end times dont happen' is the reality.

    As much as I hate to say it, and contrary to what my own idea of right/wrong; democracy in these places seems out of reach and puppet governments are the best for peace in the region.

    Well maybe not the best but I cant sit by an ignore slavery, death by beheading/burning/stoning... women subjugated as property.. etc etc etc
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
    Quantum Quack likes this.
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    You have been, for thirty years and more:

    After generations of alliance with the world center of female subjugation, beheadings, and slavery, it's bit late for conservatives in the US to get all righteous about it.

    The primary enemies of fundie and violent Islamic jihad in the region have been Iran after the Revolution, Iraq under the Western installation of Saddam Hussein, and the Soviets in Afghanistan (they were building schools for girls, even).

    The primary supporters of fundie and violent Islamic jihad in the region have been Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen, along with Kuwait and Qatar and Afghanistan after the Soviets were driven out by the Islamic jihadists there.

    The pattern is obvious, no?
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I was reported for Off Thread Posting (Post 41) and Jame R started a conversation with me (one exchange each). I don't feel free to give his but here is my reply to it:
    "I guess it is somewhat off topic, but is a direct reply to QQ's comments about "end of times" and mainly gives a link to the fact Global Warming may be the more realistic "end of time" mechanism.
    For your convenience, here is link to that post of mine:

    As you can see (and probably already know) by reading the stuck post at start of B&E which I moderate, I am inclined to allow what many may call "off thread" replies, but not "out of the blue" off thread hi-jackings.

    Also in keeping with that some what "light handed" approach to moderation, I rarely, very rarely, report anyone. - only clear gross excesses. - probable less than 10 times since I joined.

    I'll admit that given the opportunity I do slip in my call to switch to sugar cane alcohol car fuel or the need to take global warming much more seriously, but I never "hi-jack" a thread to do that.

    Thus to more directly answer your question, I would not report or even admonish in a post anyone doing what I do. Please reconsider and tell me if you think I am in need of change of my policy. Thanks."

    As James has not commented, I invite any and all to do so, but not here, by PM to me. This post is also Off thread's topic but On thread's policy for community review (and my reply to the unknown person who reported me.).
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2015
  18. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Oh, you just had to, didn't you.
    Of course I agree. But every aspect of humanity has a myriad of facets, and one must view them holistically in order to prevent that seduction from taking place. If, of course, you really want to.

    I'm sure you have. It's difficult to watch a movie set in the middle east without hearing it as a backdrop.
    It's the very first thing any director will do in order to set up a sympathetic viewpoint toward the locals, or in order to highlight the contradictory nature of mankind. Show them the beauty, as well as the ugliness.
    Blackhawk Down, Homeland (TV Series)... well I'm not going to sit here and list them all, partly because I can't be bothered thinking about it and partly because you'll probably realise it anyway just listing those two.
  19. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Some sort of synthesis would be, in my opinion, most welcome. But, also in my opinion, it can not rely upon such a fragile and transient thing as religion.
    As I've said, this Western-influenced interpretation of Islam (yes, you're quite correct there) is extremely seductive. Its base ideals are sound. But its application is not; nor is the absolute faith upon which it relies.
    Once one strips away those two things, it does not look much different to any Western idealism you care to name.
    Yet, you will still have those who force blame in one direction or the other. It is a particular nuance of this situation in which we find ourselves, that the western focus upon blame has achieved such prevalence.

    I doubt anyone here with a modicum of intelligence would fail to question the role of the West in all of this. At which point, of course, further questions regarding the leadership of the west hove into view, along with still further speculation upon the type of person who all too often rises to the level of authority required to make those decisions, but... well. I'm sure you're aware of where that speculation might lead - let us not venture too far down into the rabbit burrow.
    That you or I are not questioned with regard to that, is merely an indictment on any notion of the West being a democracy.
    We comfort ourselves with the fact that our dictators are elected, and prefer to disregard that they act accordingly. It has never been about making the correct decisions. It is only that they make the most popular ones.
    Yet, as much as I might deride that, I still fail to suggest any reasonable alternative. Because, you see, I am a cynic (in the modern sense of the word), and I see little evidence that humanity will evolve in time to prevent... this.

    But that is a human condition. Not a faith-based or political one.
    Without that lust for power, we would have no leaders. We are, in essence, truly fucked - until those leaders are an actual representation of what we might be, rather than a representation born of cynicism and opportunity based upon what we are.

    And thus, it is "the times" themselves which are to blame? Those circumstances in which we find ourselves, as a result of that we have bought into... demanding answers, and perhaps relief?
    Have you noticed that the promotion of the ideal of selflessness is, in itself, born of selfishness?
    At the core of any philosophy lies a simple thought.
    I want.

    I wasn't actually aware that you were Australian. Again I agree, it isn't terribly difficult to draw that parallel. One that becomes more and more obvious over time.
    Ask yourself this: From where does fear originate? I'm not asking what is done to exacerbate it. I'm asking for your opinion regarding its origin.
  20. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    Actually, QQ, you remind of Orson Scott Card. That curious mixture of the perspicacious with deep-seated moral belief.
    The self in conflict.

    It's... refreshing.
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    A valid point and one that is indicative of our existential quest that falls only to the living and not beyond the grave so to speak.
    Correct decisions require an objective view that is not restrained or inhibited by our mortality or indeed the time remaining for a politician to stay in office.
    To make decisions that are correct not only now but also stand the test of time and will be considered as correct with the benefit of hindsight are almost non-existent these days.
    Two such contemporary decisions that I can think of immediately would be:
    • The creation of the United Nations and creating and signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 (United Nations)
    and perhaps,
    • The Implementation of the Marshall Plan that saw many ravaged economies recover and thrive. (post WW2)
    Of course there would be others but this sort of leadership is rare as far as I can tell.

    The reluctance to think/plan beyond our mortality seems to be the main issue...

    Yet, one must consider that for many, idealism is all they "believe" they have, be it religious or other wise. Remove it and social anarchy may be the result. Alternatively let it fester towards extremism and the same result can be achieved.

    Yes a cynical view. One I could agree with at times but I wonder if true leaders ( democracy ) are really motivated by power or the sincere desire to provide direction that is somehow along the way corrupted by the power they acquire to achieve what was originally a sincere ambition?
    Yes altruism is always ultimately towards self. But then again "what is self?" and also in the "I want" you mention, "What is the "I" ?"

    As I mentioned I believe that due to the severe climate change events we are experiencing and the dire forecasts the climate scientists have been promoting, it is to be expected that a world although very much in various forms of denial would exhibit symptoms of a growing anxiety that may be displayed collectively and individually in the form of paranoid behavior/decisions. The ISIL phenomena being possibly one such example of collective symptom-ology
    This is actually a really tough question IMO and one I need to consider for a time before making a mess of it.

    I used to ask "What keeps the stars apart" as a metaphorical analogue to the same question..

    .. thank you for the compliment... and I hope the "refreshment" inspires further inquiry.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Your post also indicated a depth of insight, that deserves serious consideration.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
  22. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    You'll find a partial reply as to my own views on these subjects in this thread:

    Add Lee Kuan Yew to your list.
    There are many to this day in Singapore who hate the man - but one must consider his vision of his countries' future. There are times when one must take a less popular path, in order to provide for the future.
  23. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Great beheading video!


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