Jupiter's Orbital Velocity & Equatorial Velocity cancel?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by nebel, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    14,622
    Do you mean .. the graph you posted in the 'where is the most gravity' thread?

    What does gravity to infinity have to do with the orbital and rotational velocities of the planets?

    Are you confusing this thread with that one?
     
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  3. nebel

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    o
    No, I mention the permission angle as an example only,- of using the origin graph on post 2 of the "most gravity "questions as being very helpful.
    I have not seen a depiction of the ratios of V_o and V_r like your's anywhere else, and, like the origin link, I would like perhaps in the future add to your's too. For example,
    Jupiter and saturn are on a line (not shown,) that climb at a ~45 degree angle. Plotting others (or their zero velocity areas) might show interesting patterns.
    but please check those values and positions. getting it right deserves effort.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed.

    Pick any two points. A line can be drawn between these two points. You have successfully defined a line.

    There are 36 possible lines on that chart.

    Essentially what you've done is throw 2 six-sided dice. Two ones came up, and you cried out "Wouldja lookit that! Two ones. What the the chances of that?? That can't be random!"
     
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  7. nebel

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    it is your graph, you should have drawn that line 45 degrees up. That line defines almost all of the planetary mass in motion. Orbital velocity and rotational velocity nearly equal (on the sunny side).

    92% of all the planetary mass rolls like a wheel on a road.
    its natural, not a coincidence
    The road being stationary with respect to the center, the Sun. but
    All planets have an abstract, longer "spoke" effect where they would roll like a wheel too.
    some samples,
    Venus "rolling" on Mars orbit. Earth rolling on Moon orbit Moon rolling on Earth orbit.---
     
  8. nebel

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    2,126
    Yes, like the line for the Earth, at a slope, a ratio of 1/64 , co-incidentally close to the ratio between the Earth radius and the Moon distance. ( if a cable stretched from the equator toward the Sun to the moon distance, the end would be at standstill with the Sun). Making for longer eclipses at the equator. up to 5 minute, - only- because the moon hurries away at 1km/sec.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    14,622
    Sure I guess I should have drawn all 36 lines.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    No it doesn't.


    That's not true.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  10. nebel

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    2,126
    no you should not, if you want to be a serious teacher. correct you mistakes first. Pluto is slower than Neptune not up with Mercury. Venus should be to the left of the Y axis in the negative rotation velocities
    There are only 2 meaningful lines.
    a) from zero through Saturn, with Neptune. Uranus Jupiter scattered around. and
    b) Mercury Venus Mars. very accurate, interesting. the 3 are on /near the Y axis (once you correct your teaching mistakes )
    Vr Mercury .003 km/s not 13 km/sec ~ 4000 higher like Jupiter
    Vr Venus - . 00181 km/s
    Vr Mars . 241 km/s . not a magnitude higher like Uranus, Neptune both at 2.6 km/sec.
    Prove it please!! falsification please!, be a teacher, I'll be teacher's pet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    14,622
    What? I don't want to be a teacher!. I want to discuss science with other people who know what they're talking about.
    It is you who are trying to shoehorn me into the role of teaching you.

    Ah. I see Pluto's coordinates managed to get flipped. Corrected.

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    No. Venus' velocity is correct. Venus got flipped upside down some time in its past.

    According to whom? You?
    You see what you want to see.

    You don't seem to care that Venus and Uranus and Neptune have an orbital to rotational ratio much more similar than Jupiter or Saturn. Why isn't that meaningful?



    Yes. With nine planets, at least one is bound to have an equatorial v near its orbital v.


    Prove what? Your guess?
    You've made no case to falsify.

    You pulled those numbers out of thin air. There you go. Falsified.
     
  12. nebel

    Messages:
    2,126
    Pluto rotating at 47 km/sec ? as shown in your graph! as a correction, from one mistake to the other!
    James R will be proud of you. proving how a serious theme** can be reduced to the pits by assertions like yours.
    ** that had quality discussions not just here, supported with equations, real numbers and 10s of thousands of views.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    14,622
    You are not paying attention.

    If you go back to post 266, you will see that what I said was not true was this:

     
  14. nebel

    Messages:
    2,126
    nebel said:
    "That line defines almost all of the planetary mass in motion.
    92% of all the planetary mass rolls like a wheel on a road." end quote

    That 92% of all the planetary are the planets Jupiter and Saturn, zero velocity on contact Please play the video:

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    and:
    The bicycle wheels picture the planets Neptune and Uranus, with equal rim velocities of ~ 2.68, 2,6 km/sec. rolling in unison, (need to have double the size wheels to match Jupiter and Saturn (Vo:Vr) x R = 0V though.) and
    The front wheel, "Uranus" with it's tilted Axis of rotation has to be pictured steered in a steep turn.
    taught be the University of NSW. for eager learnera
     
  15. nebel

    Messages:
    2,126
    and you did. and in doing so established a new low level of discourse here. twice.
    I see only these velocity related connections, possible lines.
    Mercury, Venus, Mars : Cycloid motions , see Post #65 page #4 ***
    Jupiter and Saturn: ~ equal Vo/Vr
    Uranus Neptune : ~ equal Vr
    Mercury Venus Earth: adjacent rotational movement
    Moon / Earth
    *** http://www.sciforums.com/threads/mercury-venus-earth-space-drag.152727/page-4
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,622
    You are doing that by practicing Numerology - your assertions are what has put this thread in PsuedoSceince - because it's not science.

    Let me provide an example:

    N: "The statue of liberty's height in furlongs divided by the distance to the Moon minus the number of leap years is astonishingly close to pi."
    D: "Well, that may be true, but the statue's copper mass divided by its density is closer to 1."
    N: "No. You are making a mockery. Clearly, the height, the distance to the Moon and pi are [your words here - post 267] the only meaningful numbers."

    What you are practicing here is textbook Numerology - pseudoscience - false science.
     
  17. nebel

    Messages:
    2,126
    well numerology can be fun, think of yesterday's mirror number date 02 02 20 20 ! will vanish if you use a different dating system, calendar, start date. by contrast
    The present formulas that are at the heart of the numbers current discussions, zero velocity areas:
    (V:Vr)xR or
    g_r x A = C for the zero difference for near or distant total gravity are number independent.
    In comparison what have you Dave offered that is instructive, novel?

    Moderators are still waiting to see your correction/ explanation for the assertion in post #266 that
    Pluto is up there with Mercury at Vo 48 km/s and Vr 4 km/sec ( actually 4.74 .013 )
    Mercury with rotational velocity of 12 km/sec when it is actually .003 km/sec, 400 magnitudes off.
    Venus with Vr of 6 kms when it is only minus .0018 ( a >3000 fold uncorrected error)
    Uranus and Neptune with a 6 km/sec difference in Vrs when it is only .o8 (75 fold mistake) and the whole spaghetti -like connected by meaningless lines meant to either sow confusion or mock serious science efforts
    Your latest attempt: post #268:
    Venus still spinning prograde at 7 km/sec. still 4000 times the wrong side of the y axis.
    Pluto now spinning at 47 km/sec. still 3600 times too fast. thankfully thinner noodles, but without interpretative value. so was this repeatedly confusion intentional. ? or ?
    My numbers were based on the formulas above. Where did your's come from and why? and
    yes, part of 92 % of the planetary mass (Jupiter and Saturn) has within 3% zero orbital velocity at the equator noon, like the cycloid in post 271.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  18. nebel

    Messages:
    2,126
    The Venus orbital to rotational velocity ratio is - 13 444 to 1. That is why I care and showed, That
    to get to the value of ~ 1:1 such as for Saturn, a near cycloid, --the projected Venus cycloid radius would have to touch the orbit of Mars.
    sorry, that should read 4000 times instead . my mistake by magnitudes. and

    I thought of this illustration of the Jupiter near Zero velocities at noon and double at midnight:
    Think of the helicopter velocity problem. The loss of lift on the retreating blade ( the sunny planet side) has to be compensated for by increased angle of incidence. The opposite on the advancing blade, lift has to be reduced. Or there will be up roll. (on the planet night side) so:

    The consequences of the rotation/ revolution planetary interaction are sinking material toward the Sun at noon (unopposed solar gravity) aka "high tide" and rising material at midnight 5 hours later again, with Jupiter another "high tide" because of the doubled orbital velocity, and quadrupled? centrifugal force?.
    Tides not because of the distance difference but the + - 100% velocity differences between poles- and noon, midnight equator speeds.
    Velocity induced tides.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    14,622
    OK. Well if I'm cast in the role of prof and you're the student then your homework is to fix it.
    Let's see a correct graph.
     
  20. nebel

    Messages:
    2,126
    david here it is, excuse the shaky hand.
    The vertical red line indicates the relationshops of Mercury and Venus and Mars orbits and velocities, ( Venus noon follows at apparent Mercury speed , it's midnight points to Zero @ Mars)
    The dotted line has the Zero velocity area of Uranus and Neptune at twice their radius, and the
    short vertical line at 2.6 highlights the common Neptune Uranus rotation velocity, and
    the I/I line the near cancelling effect of Orbit and Rotation at the equators of Jupiter and Saturn.
    One distinction is clear, rocky bodies rotate lowly, Gaseous Giants fast, still carrying the nergy of the original cloud I guess.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  21. nebel

    Messages:
    2,126
    Because the upper regions of Jupiter and Saturn move through the "stationary" field filled with the solar wind and charged particles at different speeds from midday to midnight, no wonder the resulting gradients will generate heat so:

    University of Arizona. "What makes Saturn's atmosphere so hot: New mapping of the giant planet's upper atmosphere reveals likely reason why it's so hot." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 6 April 2020. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200406190444.htm>.
    "--currents, triggered by interactions between solar winds and charged particles from Saturn's moons, spark the auroras and heat the upper atmosphere. --"
     
  22. nebel

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    2,126
    Vast worlds called brown dwarfs have extraordinarily powerful winds
    Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...extraordinarily-powerful-winds/#ixzz6Jf2bhIFO

    Winds, on planets are caused by gradients. The idea on this thread proposes that there is a gradient in real orbital velocities on Jupiter, ( a near brown dwarf) between midday, midnight, sunup and sundown, the poles and the center.
    could the winds on both giants be fed by these gradients?
     
  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,622
    There are just so many problems here I'm actually having a hard time characterizing them.
     
    nebel and exchemist like this.

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