# New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Michael, Oct 22, 2013.

1. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,285
Free Market
noun
A completely free market is an idealized form of a market economy where buyers and sellers are allowed to transact freely (i.e. buy/sell/trade) based on a mutual agreement on price without state intervention in the form of taxes, subsidies or regulation.

The very LAST thing the USA is, is a free-market. Try, hyper-regulated Tax-Farm.

Michael Bloomberg Bans E-Cigarettes In Public
As I stated, Americans absolutely hate civil liberty. They despise personal freedom. They despise privacy. They do like being obedient to their Political Masters though. Yes, thanks to Obedience Training/Public School, they do like doing what they're told to do. IMO, only in an insane asylum would "free" people legally ban water vapor in public. Yes, thanks to the sociopathic freedom-hating middle class American, here we are, today, where more non-violent black male prisoners (many incarcerated for *gasp* smoking a weed) are being forced to perform labor for the State - than there were Slaves alive 170 years ago.

Good Ole' Amerikkka.
A nice and obedient breed of dumbed down functionally illiterate compliant tax-cattle.
A bred just deranged enough to put other human beings inside of rape-cages for exhaling water vapor in public.

Hyper-Regulated Market?
Yes.

Free-Market?
Not even close

3. ### GrumpyCurmudgeon of LucidityValued Senior Member

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1,876
Libertarianism: The philosophy accepted by low information idiots AFTER their streets get paved.

5. ### pjdude1219The biscuit has risenValued Senior Member

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Are you done making shit up yet? Americans don't hate freedom. Most Americans definition of freedom isn't how able rich people are able to harm poor people like you use

7. ### spidergoatLiddle' Dick TaterValued Senior Member

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Insurance corporations are free to offer their services on the exchange or not. The problem is that people have been avoiding their bills and forcing everyone else to pay for them. There is nothing fascistic about shared responsibility.

8. ### spidergoatLiddle' Dick TaterValued Senior Member

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No, we became rich due to a temporary set of circumstances allowing us to exploit a wealth of cheap energy. We became a great society (meaning creating a large middle class) after the depression because we adopted a set of values about what society can do for everyone, especially the poor and disadvantaged.

Those nations were rich but they had no middle class. That's what government creates.

Debt isn't a central aspect of the welfare society. In fact we would not be in any debt at all if we had a fair tax system. But it's been corrupted by money. Your ideal system would have no way of curtailing the influence of money, thus creating a feudal system.

So let's not do our best to accelerate the process by sabotaging the very system that can bring us salvation.

9. ### spidergoatLiddle' Dick TaterValued Senior Member

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A recent study by Georgetown University and the Urban Institute predicts the ACA will enable up to 1.5 million Americans to leave their jobs and become self-employed, start new businesses or retire early. It's a finding that runs counter to forecasts by critics of the federal health law, who contend it will cost the nation jobs and cripple America's small-business economy.

10. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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LOL, like I said Michael, you don’t get to rewrite the dictionary. I’m still laughing. I noticed you didn’t give your reference. And you didn’t give it for good reason. Specious material is still specious material no matter how much lipstick you put on it. I am always amazed at the lengths you will go to defend your ideology.

This is how Merriam-Webster (i.e. the dictionary) defines the term:
“an economic market operating by free competition” http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free market

There is nothing in that definition about taxation. Obamcare does nothing to constrain competition in the US healthcare markets.

Taxing, or regulation, is not in any way shape or form a free market disqualifier. Markets are not free when the government acts to constrain supply and demand. And Obamacare has done nothing to constrain the supply for healthcare, nor has it manipulated demand for healthcare. What it has done is improved access and change the way we fund healthcare. Obamacare does not set prices.

If that is so, it is very successful as it is the world’s largest economy. And you cannot point to a single successful version of your libertarianism in the world today.

LOL, yeah when all else fails, pull out the hysterical libertarian demagoguery. Call other people names. Do anything but don’t look at yourself or examine your beliefs. Because, if you look too close, you might not like what you see, Michael you know nothing about free markets, economics, or business. Your time would be better spent, learning about those things instead of mindlessly repeating libertarian dogma and when all else fails, as it always does, call people names.

11. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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That didn’t answer the challenge Michael. You dumped shit and ran. You claimed people in the 50’s didn’t pay the top income tax rate. I again challenge to you for evidence to substantiate your claim. You don’t have that evidence. Because it doesn’t exist, you lied.

Some taxes may rise, others may not. It just depends. And some people will be paying more for Obamacare as today that is true. Before Obamacare they were paying nothing. But many more are paying less. Obamacare creates opportunities, it improves the efficiency of our healthcare system, and yes, that is the American way.

This isn’t related in any way to Obamacare. And there are some problems with your numbers.

Desperate… apparently so, that is just more of your mindless hysterical demagoguery.

Are you and Sarah Palin neighbors?

LOL, oh Michael, if you had actually read about the French Revolution instead of the “Cliff Notes” version you would know that the French Revolution didn’t take out all the rich and they were a very equal opportunity executioner from day one of the revolution, executing the nobility as well as peasants.

Two, if you had done your homework, you would also note that the US has always had debt, and the debt of the US government is not the debt of its citizens. Just like the debt of corporations is not the debt of its stockholders. But hey, you were never one to let truth get in the way of a good demagogic tirade.

Well politicians will do what they always have done unless we change the way we elect them and they standards we hold them accountable to while they serve in office.

12. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Actually we did. Back in the day when the marginal tax rate was 94% in the 50’s the middle class did get rich by taxing the rich and redistributing the wealth.

We maximize civil liberty by maximizing opportunity and competition (e.g. the 1950’s). Prosperity caused that little thing called the Baby Boom.

And if you do your history, you would know it wasn’t debt that caused them to fail; it was corruption which caused those regimes to fail. But you want to give a pass to corruption.

That is just factually incorrect as has been repeatedly proven to you over the course of years.

Rent seeking is a problem. But the solution is not to empower the rent seekers as you seek to do. It is to fix the political system (e.g. election finance reform, ethical standards, well informed voters, etc.) that allows and foments rent seeking behaviors.

Unfortunately for you, we have similar Obamacare health models (e.g. Switzerland) that have been in operation for some time. In the case of the Swiss, their healthcare system is very similar to Obamacare and is almost 20 years old. Their healthcare costs are half those of the pre-Obamacare US. Their healthcare outcomes are far better than their counterparts in the pre-Obamacare US. And they are much more efficient than the pre-Obamacare US healthcare system. So observed facts, just doesn’t ideological fantasies.

13. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,285
Forbes: New McKinsey Survey: 74% Of Obamacare Sign-Ups Were Previously Insured

Hey, now that's worth a brand-shinny new Federal Bureaucracy. Get this, the amount of DEBT the US Federal Government has issued in your name, just so that States could determine whether they might want to create their own exchange or not? You know, should be or shouldn't we?

Oh, just another $4.6 BILLION dollars + interest. Not building the exchanges - but trying to answer the pressing question: Should we? Yes or No? THANK THE GODS we don't have a free-market in Medicine. Yes, sir-eeeeee. Yup, giving a Private Organization the legal ability to use the State to enforce a monopoly on Rx was WUUUUUNDER-F*CKING_FUL. Now more Americans OD on prescription drugs than on illicit drugs AND we have the largest non-violent populations of humans held captive in rape-cages in the history of the world. Just wonderful. Oh, and Rx monopoly has ensured the #3 reason you will die? Medical care. Yup, do what you're told by your betters. Pay the State/Oligarchy to work. You use them roads. moo moo moo..... 14. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member Messages: 20,285 Another four Obamacare exchanges go belly up. You know, because Government is so Economical, Efficient and Inexpensive.... morphy-morphy-morph. PoliticoPro:$474M for 4 failed Obamacare exchanges

But don't worry, this mess isn't going anywhere. It'll be as safe as a PUBLIC housing slum and probably kill you. Thanks the GODS we can't do anything by ourselves. Nope nope nope. We're too simple, and greedy, and other adjectives and stuff. So, let's give the rapist's/Government more money and power over our lives. That'll fix things!

15. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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It is because the CBO has predicted it will save the tax payer billions of dollars in the coming years.

16. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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I'm sure "The" CBO also 'predicted' Greenspan was 'saving' the economy when he lowered interest rates paving way for the largest theft in human history.

House ownership is a the lowest point since 1980. Did the CBO "predict" that one Joe?

A couple incompetent interns at the CBO predict something MIGHT happen .... yeah AND?

Take your Keynesian voodoo elsewhere. Here in the real world the standard of living is crashing for all except the top 0.01% who are richer than ever and those few bankers who worked the system from the inside for their own benefit - many of whom are now Land "LORDS" of the bottom poorest 20%. Makes for a good 'early retirement' now doesn't it? Not for the bottom middle 80%, while many of these would love to just see a few years reprieve in their old age - nope, thanks to the CBO, they'll all work right up until they day that they die (probably of ObamaCare).

Maybe the bottom 99% should thank the CBO for doing such a great job and towing the Central Bank and Treasuries line? I bet a few of the CBO interns are off working for GoldmanSuX or BJ Morgan.

17. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Actually, the ,CBO did nothing even remotely like that.

18. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Hey, look, just as efficient as the Scandinavians and of an uncompromising quality only paralleled by the Japanese, I bring you: ObamaCare 2.0
The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

Our illustrious Government run healthcare over at the Veterans Administration was routinely delaying treatment to veterans of our iditoic phony wars and even keeping some dying veterans on (alleged) secret waiting lists - until they died! Can you believe how f*cking EVIL that is!?!

Thank you STATE monopolized fascism - another fine "Public Service" brought to us by our wonderful "Servants" in "Government".

Do you think this happens in Finland? Germany? Norway? Japan? NO, it doesn't. But over here in the USSA - yes, it happens, routinely. As sure as the sun coming up. As I said, we are not them, they are not us. We pretend countries have WMD, invade them and kill their women and children with depleted uranium dust. We pretended like we'd been attacked by the North Vietnamese and then dropped agent-orange on their women and children who, to this day, are still being born or and dying of chemically induced cancers. We do this. Europeans don't. Japanese don't. We OTOH still do. So, of course, once the State tires of its Public Schooled cogs who joined the military - it tries to offload them as quickly and quietly AND CHEAPLY as possible. Take a good look - these are YOUR public regulators. They are your masters. You are their property. Their tax-cattle. You will pay them in meat and milk. They will regulate your farm as your farmer.

AND you still think the State is going to provide you high-quality, affordable healthcare? What a JOKE!
Think again.
In 15-25 years, the very last place you'll want to find yourself is in a Public Hospital being treated by a functionally illiterate Public School graduate.

The solution is more freedom - not less. Sound money - not fiat. Laws, not regulations. Let the people compete. Free the people.
Ah, and therein lies the problem - Americans loath freedom.

FACT: The #3 reason you will leave this Earth is State-Certified, State-Regulated, State-monopolized so-called "Healthcare".

19. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Liberty Health Share

Liberty Health Share

LOL.....

Can you imagine? The government has FUBARed healthcare / diseasecare to the point where people are legally optioning out of BOTH ObamaCare as well as Health Insurance and trying their luck with Christian "HealthShare".

I'll say one thing, this is a great example of how a FREE market should work (the Gods only know how they squeezed this one onto the bill). See? People come up with ALL sorts of unknown and unknowable solutions - when given the chance. No Public "Servant" is going to concoct this sort of public service. How would they? This is based on freedom and volentarism. The State only knows how to do one thing: initiate force.

Freedom - that's the thing that made this country prosperous - the FREEDOM to trade with one another using sound-money and law. The FREEDOM to trade your labor-hours without paying the State for the privilege of doing so. Licencing was Private - and actually meant something and retained its quality or left the market. Sad that most Americans hate freedom. Because if we hadn't given up our freedoms, we'd be making an average of \$350,000 / year, probably have colonized Mars and would have medical treatments boarding on SyFy relative to today's ad hoc disease care.

Oh well, we get Public schooled functional illiterates, ObamaCrap, phony wars, pollution and waste, and the lowest standard of living in a generation. And, what do we get for our increased productivity? We get to put BOTH parents to work to pay for all our "Free" public services - as everyone races to be slum-lords with dreams of retiring early to live as a Land Lord. We get to bail out the top 0.01% with generational debt. We get "Regulators" with the power to send us to prison for non-violent interactions - - a violation of everything the nation was founded on.

And that's how it's going to remain, for a long long long time to come. Then, maybe, we'll start to see some of the State succeeding from the Union. And that will close the chapter on another failed experiment in trying to live with Limited government in a Democracy. We'll return to the trend-line where the Lords will do away with pretense, eliminate fiat-currency, and outright own their tax-cattle. And what of their tax-cattle? They'll moo contentedly. Just the way they like it.

Moo moo Amoorikkkan moo.

20. ### TiassaLet us not launch the boat ...Staff Member

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A Note to ACA Critics: You Lost

Noise and Bluster

"We're only six days into June, and opponents of the ACA have already had a terrible month."

After all the noise and bluster, it would seem that opponents of Obamacare are bound to be disappointed; for many of them, it would seem the individual mandate is working at least as well as they said it would when they supported the policy—i.e., before a Democratic president agreed with them.

As Steve Benen suggests, "The news surrounding the Affordable Care Act has been so good this week, it's almost hard to know where to start."

We could start with the fact that private insurers who skipped the exchanges now want in ...

One of the many, many, many predictions of Obamacare failure made by conservatives is that insurance companies would systematically drop out of the exchanges. They made this prediction many, many, many, many, many times. The data is starting to come in and, guess what, insurance companies are joining the exchanges. Dan Diamond reports that, in every state that has reported information so far, the number of insurance companies competing in the exchanges will expand in year two.

... or we could go with the fact, as expected, consumers are paying their premiums ...

I'm quite confident that at least 90% of the original 8.02 million exchange QHP enrollees have paid their first premiums (and I'm guessing up to 80% of the 300K+ who've enrolled since then).

... or we could talk about “Obamacare” cutting the rate of uninsured in New Jersey by 38%, Minnesota by 40%, and Kentucky by 50%.

By why stop there?

Indeed; there are the data coming in from Medicare, and also polling numbers suggesting people prefer repair of the law's quirks and shortcomings over repeal of the entire package.

Simon Maloy of Salon considers some of the political implications:

The big news was the release of new data from the White House indicating that enrollment in Medicaid has surged in states that elected to expand the program under the Affordable Care Act. In April alone more than 1 million people signed up for coverage. Medicaid enrollment in states that rejected the expansion has also gone up as people who didn’t know they were eligible started signing up – the so-called Woodwork Effect. Add all those enrollees to the number of people who were on Medicaid or CHIP prior to the ACA’s implementation, and you come up with just over 65 million Americans enrolled in the program.

As Paul Waldman puts it at the Washington Post, this is game over for Republican critics of the law who insist on repealing and replacing the ACA to get government out of healthcare. To do so, they’d have to find a way to transition tens of millions of people off of their government-provided health coverage. “Even if Republicans took back the White House and both houses of Congress,” Waldman writes, “moving people off their government insurance would be next to impossible.” The fight over Obamacare was always going to be a war of attrition, and it was always stacked against the Republicans.

And it’s not just that people are signing up for Medicaid; they’re using it, and early indicators are that expanding access to healthcare is having the intended effect of reducing instances of uncompensated care. The Colorado Hospital Association released a study this week showing that “hospitals in states that chose to expand Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act saw significantly more Medicaid patients and a related reduction in self-pay and charity care cases.” Hospitals are obligated to treat and stabilize emergency room patients regardless of their insurance status or their ability to pay. If they can’t pay, the hospital gets stuck with the bill. Expanding the Medicaid rolls means that more people can seek out care and hospitals will have to absorb less bad debt, which could lead to lower healthcare costs overall.

The popularity of expanded Medicaid sets it apart from the rest of the ACA, which is still broadly disliked. That niche popularity has opened up a narrow path for Democrats to take the offensive on Obamacare and put pressure on Republicans who oppose the expansion. Senate Democrats sent a letter this week to Republican governors in states that rejected expanded Medicaid urging them to “put politics aside and do the right thing in helping to expand Medicaid coverage to the millions of Americans who desperately need it.” Among the signatories to that letter were Sens. Kay Hagan, Mary Landrieu and Mark Begich, all of whom are facing tough reelection fights this cycle.

One of the most interesting aspects of this particular thread has always been a coincidence observable among some of the PPACA's critics, who already believe that government screws everything up, but want us to believe that the troubled launch of the Healthcare.gov website is somehow exceptional, as if any other day govenrment would have done a fine job if it wasn't for those rascally Democrats screwing up.
____________________

Notes:

Maloy, Simon. "GOP’s quiet Obamacare disaster: How this week’s biggest story got overlooked". Salon. June 6, 2014. Salon.com. June 14, 2014. http://www.salon.com/2014/06/06/gop..._how_this_weeks_biggest_story_got_overlooked/

Benen, Steve. "Everything’s coming up aces for the ACA". msnbc. June 13, 2014. msnbc.com. June 14, 2014. http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/everythings-coming-aces-the-aca

21. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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18,896
Ooh, a new idea!!!!! Pooling resources makes things cheaper and more accessible, even in a capitalist country! Who would've guessed?

22. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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One has to wonder at what point do Republicans lose complete credibity with independent voters, how many times must they be proven wrong before they become politically impotent and irrelevant?

23. ### sifreak21Valued Senior Member

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This made me laugh so your a republican I see. Now let's look at who Obama ran against to take offivve.. McCain seemed OK besides the fact he kinda lit a fire under racism again. Argue this I can post many videos of his rallies that prove it.. and his running mate Sarah Palin. I suggest you watch the documentary or video called game change.. and to think she would be an old mans heartbeat away from Pontus . If that doesn't rerrify you nothing will. Hell a highschool history student would have been a more logical choice.

Now look at the parties. Democrats want change they see what needs changed and they take steps toward that. The healthcare system while not perfect is a step in the right direction. Reason Obama won is younger generation wants change. So step back and look at some of these issues that the majority of the younger generation wants to see changed

Immigration c
The wars c
Healthcare c
Gay rights p
Woman's rightsp

Those are a few that democrats support or want changed c for change p for pro