Police choke holds?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Beer w/Straw, Jul 1, 2020.

?

Police choje holds?

  1. yes

    20.0%
  2. no

    80.0%
  1. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,652
    OK lets make some assumptions:

    Police don't shoot to kill, they aim for the body and they make a written report every time they draw their gun. Choke holds (rear naked choke )


    aren't meant to kill but subdue...

    Yadda yadda. I think I've said enough that people can grasp my thinking.

    Should police be allowed to use choke holds in a non lethal fashion before drawing their gun?

    :EDIT:

    I voted yes, yet I should mention I'm not intimidated by police - the judge would be a different story!

    The last time I was under "arrest" (was having a mental meltdown and was severely drunk in public) the cop drove me to the hospital aka no criminal charge.

    The cop asked me if I was drunk and I said "yes"... Didn't have to do a breathalyzer or anything. (did get to wear handcuffs though) Just knew lying to police is obstructing justice and that would be bad for me. (Plus they guy was three times the size of me and I was drunk.)

    Moreover there was three cruisers. One cop talked to me he had his backup and supervisor, hence, I wasn't going anywhere... (Someone called the cops on me cause they were worried about my wellbeing.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  3. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Are cops in the UK allowed to use choke holds cause they don't carry guns?
     
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    According to a Freedom of Information request from 2017 made public, the Metropolitan Police force state that neck restraints are not taught within the officer safety training programme, with only rare exceptions. They state they discourage them as being inherently risky, with risk of serious injury or fatality to the subject. [source here]

    So while they are not explicitly banned, they certainly don’t seem to be encouraged in any way, and actively discouraged.
    At least by the Met.
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    5,035
    i have watched a highly skilled martial artist use strangle on a violent person in a club of crowded people very effectively
    he had probably 10 years experience in martial arts
    it was extremely effective and resulted in no one being injured
    choking is a very high skill fraught with danger of crushing the throat & killing the person before medics can get there
    and unless u can do a tracheotomy they are as good as dead within in couple of minutes
     
  8. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,021
    I think there should be independent investigations every time there is an unarmed death. It should be to find blame of course but it should also be an ongoing learning procedure to learn from the past just like the NBSB does with airplane accidents.

    There should also be better evaluations given (mental fitness) before becoming a policeman. Choking is probably not a good idea but banning it is a piecemeal approach and probably a lot more change is needed than that.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,349
    Police in most US departments are (supposedly) not allowed to shoot unless justified in killing and willing to kill.

    All shooting is potentially - even likely - to be crippling for life if not immediately lethal. So it's a basic rule: don't shoot anything you aren't willing to kill. Don't even point a firearm at anyone you aren't willing to kill.

    There is no such thing as a "non-lethal" choke hold "fashion". Any effective choke hold can kill.

    Along with rubber bullets at point blank range, tear gas canisters at point blank range, beating the already incapacitated with clubs, kicking the incapacitated in the head or vital organs, and so forth, choke holds carry a substantial risk of serious and permanent injury in addition to the pain and suffering they cause. That's why many police officers use them - they want to inflict pain and fear on the vulnerable.

    Shooting someone in "the body" is likely to cripple or kill them.

    The police are trained to shoot at the biggest target, the center of mass, because otherwise they are likely to miss. It's not easy to fire a handgun accurately in real life circumstances. That does mean the police are likely to cripple or kill the people they shoot, but they are not supposed to be shooting in the first place if crippling or killing is not ok.

    As far as having to fill out a written report every time they "draw their gun", notice that in many of the police firearm killings that have turned up in the news recently the initial and official accounts by the police failed to include such written reports even in circumstances far beyond merely "drawing" the gun.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/louisville-police-breonna-taylor-death-incident-report/
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  10. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,035
    lol

    that there is a large part of the real problem

    America is American culture

    UK has universal health care
    USA does not
    clearly that shows that British people value human life far more than USA culture, society & their politicians & legal system

    USA has the death penalty
    UK does not

    Gun violence in the USA
    Verses UK gun violence ?

    i do see and read your obvious mocking tone
    but are you mocking those who are pro carrying guns in public for anyone & pro un regulated guns in society
    and pro no regulations on police ?

    applying an American cultural problem to the UK and then attempting to equate the 2 as comparable values of human nature is simply flaming the subject
     
  11. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    5,652
    Call me naive and dumb.


    But this is more what I was thinking.
     
  12. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    5,035
    trolling

    fyi
    like floyd
    the size of the neck & the body type defines the difference between the applied force to create arterial blocking, nerve blocking
    esophageal constriction through muscle pressure
    etc etc

    applied pressure directly to the spine at the back of the neck with a large body type larger boned structure
    compresses the muscles and tendons to create bodily pressure to compress the nerves & spine while partially blocking the esophagus
    the head being turned side ways uses the large neck muscles which by being twisted create an arterial constriction

    blood circulation is cut off almost completely to the brain
    when pressure is then applied to the back to prevent the lungs from moving, it starts to starve the blood supply of oxygen
    this means the body is not only loosing oxygen delivery to the brain and vital organs, but is also loosing total over all oxygen saturation in the blood stream

    the combined pressure on the spine is a stress position which directly makes the body go into shock.
    shock kills(as they say)

    allowing un trained psychologically unstable people to use hand guns is bad management
    endorsing that in other forms of deadly force is also bad management

    trying to troll the subject by characturing the difference between strangles & chokes
    is past childish

    was floyd a wife beating home invader ?
    i dont know
    no one has published any court documents
    why not ?

    who are you trolling for ?

    soo glad dont live in the USA
    they have soo many serious problems
    and those in power do not wish to change anything because they are completely un accountable
    and that is the way everything is built up to support
    they want a right to all the power
    but demand to not be held accountable for using it(& to not be held accountable for owning all the rights to it while actively denying others to use that power)


    ... p.s
    The mistake is in thinking they wish to solve the problem of people dying & being hurt
    they dont
    they wish to only solve the problem of being held accountable for their use of power

    then someone suggests "give them more power so they do not have to have any more accountability"
    and the population cheer & the band goes marching on

    cycle
    around and around ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    9,290
    Looking at the fight (in reality staged choreography rough and tumble) the few seconds you glimpse choke hold to me it looks more like a "trying to break neck by pulling opponents head backwards"

    Stupid hold in a stupid sport and a good reason for such stupidity to be retired

    Very telling is when one of the contestants voiced something like "one time I really wanted to hurt him"

    As I said staged choreography rough and tumble with the winner all ready decided and fake fighting to whip up stupid spectators to pay and gamble on who win in the next match

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  14. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    5,652
    I'm prencis peach and I don't like the thought of bullets.

    But, here's something probably more interesting.

     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,349
    The topic was choke holds used by the police.

    In martial arts combat there is a referee, and rules. No one in a wrestling or UFC ring is allowed to choke anyone for 8 minutes, for example - and there is a referee right there, to make them stop, and to enforce consequences if they don't.

    There are rules for police, in the US - they vary by department, but none allow murder. There are no referees, however. Not unless someone has a camera.

    The cop who killed the guy in New York was violating the rules - New York police are forbidden to use choke holds in that situation. He did it anyway, as he had many times before, because he faced no consequences (all the good cops were somewhere else, as usual) - until the guy died on camera.
     
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  16. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    6,900
    radio raheem?
     
  17. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    5,652
    But I'm still princess peach afraid of bullets.
     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,349
    Mickey Mouse?
    Garbage from the usual source?

    No police officer that I know of - none in Minneapolis, and none in the national news - has ever been arrested for choking a handcuffed "suspect" who did not actually die. Nor have any been arrested for kicking handcuffed "suspects", beating them with clubs, spraying mace and tear gas in their eyes at point blank range, and so forth.

    They haven't even been fired. They are still on the force. They are working side by side with the good cops, right now.

    All these good cops - they're never around when needed. They show up later - after the camera footage comes out, after the lawsuit is filed and it turns out there's evidence behind it, after the shit hits the fan. If there is no camera footage, if there is no evidence except witness accounts and the like, the good cops never show up at all.
     
  19. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    5,652
    Maybe, cause I've had seizures that have knocked me out and I woke in the hospital, means I don't care.
     
  20. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    5,035
    ?

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  21. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    watched a guy get strangled unconscious once
    around 150 people watching
    ref was standing about 2 meters away

    interesting thing was that the guy had no memory of going out
    he was about 16 years old
    great learning opportunity
    digging up those files ..
    i think his parents sent him for brain scans a 4 days after(happened on a saturday or sunday, he didn't tell his parents until the monday or tuesday night, they sent him to hospital for brain scans on the following day)

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    kids ! hahahaha

    watched a 13 year old girls neck get almost broken once
    hair line fracture maybe with a strain
    stretchered out to ambulance
    straight to universal health care hospital
    full body scans
    back the next day in a neck brace telling people not to worry
    lol
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020

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