Proof that God does not exist.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    No, drop the guns pl. Apologies and guns don't go together.

    good, so you follow some faith. Could be in your spouse or in your drunkard friend. Did anyone seek evidence from you for following this faith? Did you ever try to investigate legally or scientifically to get your faith endorsed?

    And whats your "bad man" ? Where do you/we get this concept of bad man?
    Moral depravation?

    So you think there is no difference between you (human being) and a pig (Animal).
    Don't you think having faith in God makes an atheist somewhat different from an animal?
    Don't you think it may give you a moral high ground (not bad man, not bad animal)?

    You are absolutely right. Science stays away from this question. But you have already forgotten your OP, it was you who wanted scientific and legal evidence for the existence of God.

    I don't have to refer to such links. There are people like you on the other side of fence who are disillusioned that the science has proved God or like that. No, science has no role in it either way. There are many dead-ends for science, can't invoke God everywhere.
     
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  3. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    No, I am not being arrogant. The point is a scientists can attempt to explain, with best of his dressed down abilities, about spacetime distortion caused by merger of two spinning neutron stars, to an uninitiated layman, but he will never intend to make him a scientist, he will not have any meaningful discussion or argument with him. Likewise an argument between a theist and an atheist will not move beyond the first step : the denial.
    Despite the fact that you follow faith, despite the hints of morality by you, despite the acknowledgement that science cannot get into this..you call me (theist) foolish for following my faith. Please yourself.
     
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Tell me what it is first.
     
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  7. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    I did not advise you to embrace God. You can continue to embarrass him

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  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Difference is we know a spouse exists and has behaved in a certain way in the past. Whereas your faith is based on something less than evidence, maybe an old book, or just a hope .
     
  9. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    I will once I know it. Meanwhile you can refer to #21.
     
  10. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    I am sure you know what "faith" does not call for any evidence. It is your rationality which is seeking evidence.
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Not Alex but I will post replies anyway

    If I know details about both for some I would say yes - for some I would say no and some would get a maybe/unsure

    But the question is totally unconnected with and irrelevant to the thread

    Unless you had very intimate details of both of their lives you can't

    There is no purpose to life. Humans give themselves a purpose IN life

    But life itself does NOT have purpose

    Sometimes yes sometimes no. It's really immaterial to me. It depends what I am in court for and what else is going on

    I have got what I am going to say, the truth, no matter if I swear on the bible or Superman comic. Courts tend to prefer bible but in truth it really is a outmoded requirement

    Indicating to the person "You understand in the court you are required to be truthful?" is more than enough to satisfy court requirements

    Science has never analysed beliefs or faith

    If someone exclaims to a scientist "I believe such and such" the first thing a scientist will do is gather evidence about the belief. The EVIDENCE will be analysed NOT the belief

    Subtle difference ie no evidence found no analysis performed

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  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well timed I just got back from the other place.

    And yes you are right and I accept your point.
    I usually realise thst I am wrong earlier.
    Well there have been occasions where others have questioned why I have supported someone they thought was crazy.
    And all I could answer is well I dont have a problem with that person...
    No.
    Are you saying if you believe you are right then you are right?
    I understand firm conviction I think.
    TV?
    I see what you are driving at...so for me I went to Sunday school and scripture lessons at school and even went to church very early.
    So I expect in my case my morals ethics etc could be traced to there on the one hand but to my parents on the other who tressed honesty and kindness as the most important qualities to foster.
    So our bad man will usually fail to meet my expectation of honesty or kindness and for not being kind he should be executed and his soul kept in a jar.
    No. And I respect all life as if it is as important as my own.
    I dont know what animals feel or experience and although we are all similar we are different in ways that separate us but we all belong to the family of life...we each represent our species but no species should look down upon any other...and I know we do..even I do at times...but its a standard I try to achieve all the time.
    If an atheist has faith in God he will not be an athiest...
    But I can see that if you believe in God then that requires you to believe you are special and indeed that in effect the world is here for you in fact created by God for you...
    Sure I can understand you will have a different view of yourself and that you are so much better than an annimal and that there is a wonderful purpose for you as well as an after live a d if nothing else a guide ax to hopefully be decent and not let all the gifts go to your head...Sure it sounds perfect.

    But as I said I dont see it the way you do...
    I can see absolutely why the concept is most acceptable.

    My values are just different to yours.
    I can see how can take the moral high ground as you put it.. I think most do their best...And it has been my experience to be able to find some good in most people but that only comes from my determination not to judge others. ..and I dont always get that right.
    Well I dropped the idea of the op.
    Pity I think you would have enjoyed it for a multitude of reasons .
    It surprised me and that is not easy.
    No me I dont believe in God so I dont relate science that way...I am saying there are folk who believe whatever...nothing more.
    True but folk may see the science as support...there are all sorts...there are folk who take their scriptures as fact ...it takes all kinds of people. ..

    Alex
     
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    And I was wrong to call you that or hint at same.

    I feel really bad sincerely.

    I have not been kind and that is being honest.

    You are a good man and a man who thinks and so you have my respect.

    Alex
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    ...
    Maybe my words are best selected by the spell checker it nailed it this time.

    Alex
     
  15. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Today you named EMR as electromagnetic radiation and photon as photon, tommorow if you change these names, it does not mean entity of these is changed. We may need to check all primary a secondary entities serving as per primary and secondary gods, goddesses, angels, devils etc. by comparing their attributes and properties as indicated by religions and by science. We may be able to understand many.
     
  16. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Assuming that those with faith in God believe their faith to be rational, upon what is that assessment of rationality based, if not evidence?
     
  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Not sure about that
    I'm sure those engaged in serious discussion. I mean serious discussions not just ranting
    I'm sure those in serious discussions have been through being requested to provide evidence and get to a point where they don't care ie "It's my faith - end of discussion. I don't care about science or being rational. If you don't believe you cannot empathise how I feel"

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  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Then what use are relics and miracles, examples of prayer working, and claims of science in the Bible? All attempts to appeal to reason, however flawed. Theists will grasp reasons when they can.
     
  19. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    I missed it.
    A further extract of my essay which probably answers your dilemma.

    Abstract: This thesis primarily deals with the very purpose of our existence, the involvement of a bigger designer and leads us to some thought provoking idea about origin of our universe and the evolution process to find the God.

    Introduction
    :What is the purpose of our life? Is it any different from that of any living organism? I am afraid no, the purpose of our life, the purpose of life of any living organism is: To find the GOD or to support in the process of finding the GOD. But do we know it? Unfortunately we do not even realize it, as we are relentlessly pursuing the artificial objectives based on our immediate material world understanding…

    ...

    The list is endless; the objective is either defined by us or forced on us by people who influence us. What is all this, nothing but the material objectives, nothing but to give some purpose to our otherwise aimless looking wandering on earth. Never ever we thought that all these objectives are of some value as long as we are alive, they make no sense beyond that, and even otherwise there is no reason why our designer be bothered about what we achieve in this material world.

    Treasure Hunt:
    In our younger days we play a game of treasure hunt, we do not know about the treasure neither we know about the location, but we search it till someone finds it out, why because it is certainty that this is a game and treasure is there for us to find.

    God is like this hidden treasure, we do not know about his location and neither do we know what it would be like to find and meet him. The matter ends here, almost every individual who can call himself non atheist would vouch (with varied degree) for the existence of GOD, wishes to learn more about his existence, wishes to find him and seeks his divine intervention, that means treasure is there but we do not know the means to find it. We fail to find it and we continue pursuing false set of objectives as listed above.
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Translation:
    Lack of an objective purpose makes you uncomfortable, so you invented a father figure that knows what it's all about. You don't even seem to be able to define what god is, so any rational person may dismiss the notion out of hand.
     
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  21. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    So you simply assume that there is a game being played, and you decide to join in?
    Who says that there is a game?
    Who says that there is treasure to be found?
    Is it not simply that those before you have said that they are playing a game?
    That those around you seem to be playing a game and you want to join in?
    You join in initially and then gradually come to believe, and then reinforce that belief, that you are laying a game.

    But who is to say that there is actually a game?
    That there is any treasure to be found?

    If you get something from the playing of the game (whether you win or lose, find the treasure or not) then that's great.
    But the benefit of playing does not equate to the truth of the game, although it may encourage you to keep playing.

    So, how do you know that there is actually a game, other than those already playing their game telling you so?
     
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  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    It's called Hide and Seek

    god spoilt it when he found the perfect place where to hide which nobody can find

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  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you for taking the time to present your belief upon the purpose of life.

    Some of us were just pursuing partners and also materials to build a nest and focused on breeding and making sure our offspring were equiped to survive so they also could one day breed.

    And material objects were desirable because they were thought to attract a mate, or useful to make a nest for the mate or to provide benefit to the off spring.

    Although we can call the objects artificial we seek to acquire their benefit offerred support to the main purpose which is to find a mate and breed.

    The bibles confused approach to all matters sexual probably causes theists to forget that mating and breeding is the fundamental purpose if you must have a purpose.

    Thank you for explaining things in a way that helps me understand how you view the situation.

    And it is good to look for the treasure I suppose.

    I looked for the treasure, you believe can be found, for years but I finally I decided that there was no treasure but only a treasure map and that the map was drawn by folk who had not ever seen any treasure and did not realise the treasure of a family.

    In most cases it was the torment of their lonliness and dispair that something in their life was absent, namely family, that no doubt caused them to fantisize and write that there was something else ...and to invent even another chance at life so maybe they could be happy the next time ... they needed a next time and a friend and perhaps their lonliness and failure at the basics of life caused them to invent an invisable friend. But why they had to drag others into their fantasies I am not sure as their behaviour was never understandable if you enjoyed a real life.

    I gave up hunting for non existent treasure ...and by giving up that fruitless search I could see that what was important was to find a mate, build a nest and breed...raise a sucessful family.

    The treasure was my mate, my nest and my offspring.

    All real, all tangible and all consistent with life and living in the existing world.

    Maybe if you thought that a purpose of breeding was more honorable you would not consider many of the things you seek materially are false.

    If you want a house and a car to help find a mate and start a family I dont see working to acquire such possessions as somehow usless or pointless as you seem to suggest...rather honorable I suggest.

    It seems that you seek an unrealistic treasure and ignore the true treasure life has to offer.

    I think the only value in seeking treasure, say if you find a treasure map, is to get the desire to search out of your system, and realise if someone has hidden treasure they will never make a map for someone else to find it...think about it why make a map? ...who could not remember where they hide their treasure?...its not like..Oh where did I put my keys?...

    So if you find a treasure map it is sure to be something drawn up to have folk participating in a wild goose chase.

    I searched for the treasure that you still hunt but finally realised...there was no treasure and those who drew the map were uninformed at best and dishonest at worst.
    But shame on me for not realising these teachers were uninformed and often incorrect...if they were wrong on many things why would they be right on all things...well you cant trust reality to be decribed by someone who gets so many things wrong.

    I simply realised that if everything was due to God and we are here because of God it would be clear and in no way hidden in books half full of errors and misunderstanding...to me it made sense that if God was real there would be no doubt or confusion or denominations or varience of belief from one place to another... for knowledge of God would be universal ..the knowledge would be as basic and as standard as how humans breed and reproduce...there would be no mystery needed... so to find a mystery I find it inconsistent with life and observation of all that is in the world or indeed the universe.

    Would you raise a child and determine the best way to help them understand and respect you was to leave and never see them or to ever help them learn to read or dress themselves.


    The lack of input suggests an obvious conclusion for me.

    Nevertheless I thank you again for explaining your view I do appreciate you doing so...I responded because you made me think of how I viewed things and not to discredit anything you have written...in fact I think you went a long way to helping me understand your view of the way it is for you.

    But I suggest this...if you do no more than find a partner and raise a family with kindness and respect for each of them and aquire goods to support your family, I think that would make any God happy and have him believe that he had not created a Universe that life did not enjoy and flourish within.
    Would he want praise?
    I dont know but as a father I seek no praise or worship from my children so even the aspect of suggesting a God would require praise seems strange and probably unrealistic...however such a requirement would suit folk who experienced insecurity and that insecurity could reflect in the authorship of say a religious text.


    Alex
     

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