Religion and women.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. Bells Staff Member

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    You are applying a bizarre standard.. Almost movie type standard.

    Physical manipulation and stimulation, Jan. Involuntary reaction.

    Sometimes he could be asleep, drunk, stoned, etc. Most of the time, there is no gun. Most of the time, there is coercion, threats, some force, etc. And in cases of male on male rape, there is often physical force and threats.

    You have come up with this bizarre scenario that actually beggars belief.

    You are the one obsessed with the gun to his head.

    And again, it can take only one person. Rape is sex without consent.

    I was actually questioning your frankly pornographic obsession with how a woman could arouse a man to rape him. The demand for details, even after the question was answered.. Repeatedly... Is bordering on pornography. For example:

    This has been answered multiple times already.

    I did.

    Stop demanding we cater to whatever rape fantasy you dream up to explain to you how the male victim could get aroused.

    And stop asking ridiculous questions in comparison.

    Consent in the context of this discussion means no rape.

    If you wish to discuss consent in regards to euthanasia, that is a subject for an entirely different thread.

    Probably the standard English version.

    The KJV literally means the same thing.

    How much further are you going to try to go parsing this to try to deny it means rape?

    And I'm not even broaching on the subject of the woman's choice or say in the matter, because that's another horrendous thing for her voice and choice to be taken from her.

    I mean, the earlier passages describe the same wording as a crime worthy of death, but when it comes to the virgin who is not betrothed, it's not rape?

    And there's the answer to that question...

    A man "lays hold" on a woman and lies with her, by your own definition of what "lay hold of", is use of force and would classify as rape. Seize, arrest, catch, grasp, wield, be caught, be taken, captured..

    The passage is well recognised as discussing rape, Jan.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5615/neareastarch.78.4.0294?seq=1

    "Rape", as we understand it, was a word that existed back then. Back then, it fell under the umbrella of adultery or sex before marriage. If he lay with her, even if by force, he would still be made to marry her and she, to marry her rapist.

    Do you understand now?

    Well, that's a start..

    Paying her father for her..

    The rapist paying the money to her father, is a bride price. It's the transfer of property rights by way of monetary compensation.

    It was actually very common and still is very common in many parts of the world.

    Because "rape" is a modern term in the context of this discussion and did not exist in that context when the text was written.

    If you wish to look at the historical meaning - "The term rape originates from the Latin rapere (supine stem raptum), "to snatch, to grab, to carry off" - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Etymology]

    And then compare it to what you defined above:

    to catch, handle, lay hold, take hold of, seize, wield
    1. (Qal)
      1. to lay hold of, seize, arrest, catch
      2. to grasp (in order to) wield, wield, use skilfully
    2. (Niphal) to be seized, be arrested, be caught, be taken, captured
    3. (Piel) to catch, grasp (with the hands)
    It would describe rape.

    You do understand this, yes?

    Because it is well recognised as discussing rape.

    After the girl is 'seized/captured/caught/taken/arrested/etc'..

    By any definition, such acts would amount to it being rape.

    The irony is that they use the same language to describe the actions of the man who is later killed... But you say that in the case of the virgin who is not betrothed, it's not rape..

    Too bad about the virgin then..

    She's made to marry him.

    You're leaving out the important thing in the context of this discussion.

    It was all about ownership.

    No one is saying it is.

    But it has helped protect and enable the abuse of women and children.
    Say what now?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I had a terrible fall and luckily only have a sprained wrist and three fingers sprained which has stopped me working and playing the guitar..on left so it is not the end of the world....it is a miracle that I did not break something...when I say miracle I mean very lucky as obviously entities that create universes probably have better things to do than minimise damage when an old man falls over...miracle just means good luck.

    But it's like I have been directed back here and clearly just in time to expose Jan.

    Happily DMOE reminds us in each post he makes that he is still alive but suffering from lack of blood to the brain...

    But Jan...oh dear what can one say...you have been feeding the forum red herrings pretending to be stupid just to divert attention from the proposition that Christian men are more likely to use domestic violence than any other group.

    First let all members understand what Jan is up to....the material that I posted earlier, setting out the relationship between religion and disrespect for women and linking of domestic violence to an apparent christian entitlement given in tbe bible in many many passages...is so compeling and so very well evidenced that Jan will do anything and everything to divert attention (as Bells says twisting like a pretzel) from that material and also diverting attention from the damning story provided by Billvon of rape and murder set out most clearly in the bible .... Jan started by trying to sidetrack the discussion by laying down many red herrings that entirely diverted attention from both Billvons biblical story and the material that I posted showing the reality that Christian men are more likely to commit domestic violence because they believe their religion entitles them to do so...reading the many passages that gives them authority to treat woman as second class we can easily conclude these Christian men certainly are not making things up when they say the bible authorizes their bad behaviour...it does..that is well evidenced.

    Jans red herring..adultery and rape...how was that ever to do with the murder of everyone of the defeated save the virgins who were given to the men as spoils of war as mere possessions ...I think we can reasonably assume that sex with these virgins would not have been consensual..I mean think of these poor girls, terrified having seen all their family, mother father, big brother sister and babies butchered..I doubt if they would ever get over such horror such that they could accept the murder of their loved ones in their bed...think of the reality, think of the absolute horror...then think how Jan tries to make out its ok because of adultery or something.

    It is bad enough that such deeds make it into a Devine book but to have a man of this modern era defend it is beyond disgusting and shows just how evil is this cult of Christianity...

    Jan has diverted attention and now has people arguing about rape, adultery and sexual arousal, when we all know what is rape and what is not.....the forum is falling for Jans red herring tactic.

    All his talk of adultery and rape and marriage was just a ploy to avoid discussion on the issues...Billvons story had to be swept under the carpet and certainly getting back here I think that Jan sure is a sneaky air theif but not sneaky enough for me not to notice.

    When everyone looks at how he moved the goal posts you will realise the lengths he will go to hide the truth...just ask the virgins in Billvons biblical story..is there any way they were not raped...ask how horny you may feel after seeing your baby sister smashed on the corner stones of your house, or to see the sword come thru your mother's chest as see tried to cover you from the attack, to see you father decapitated and the soldier kicking his head out the door... all would be rape victims ....and any one who would take the stand Jan has taken is terribly sick unrealistic and brain washed such that defense of such evil is his knee jerk response...

    Jans only response to the material that I posted is to say it is wrong or that the authors are unreliable and yet there is so much smoke I doubt if he would find no fire if indeed he really looked...he knows there are grave problems that is why he does not want others to look...the evidence is voluminous google for and undending supply.

    The problems are real...look if you have the time Google it and believe me you will not get through all the material that is reflected by the small sample that I have posted...plus think about my personal experience...real affidavits from real people day in day out...

    Now that I am totally immobilized I have been looking into is the incidence of insest in Christian families....

    seems that male christian sexual abusers with in the family use the dominance they gain from the various biblical passages treating females as inferior and in addition to citing how god did not see insest as wrong referencing various passages that prove that to be indeed the case ...and with biblical authority push themselves upon their victims.

    There is plenty if you care to Google...so much that I have no fear that my words will be shown to be baseless.... real facts...

    So Jan you have yet to convince us the material in what has been posted is flawed in any way and I would like to think now that your red herring tactic has been exposed folk will help you address the proposition that Christian men are more likely to commit domestic violence than others...don't worry about the insest conection to Christianity..yet...perhaps offer a comment as to why Christians have murdered more humans than any other group.?... you would not belong to the Nazi party...why?..their past, their history...and yet Christians with the worst past of all...yeh it's ok as it's a nice group at my church....hypocrite.

    Alex
     
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  5. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I believe in God, and I also believe rape is wrong. Always. If you say that you believe rape is always wrong, no matter the circumstances, do you feel this somehow betrays your faith beliefs?
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    By the biblical text, there isn't much difference between rape and adultery..

    It's deemed sex outside of marriage.

    Whether it's by force or not is beside the point depending on who owns the woman at the given time.

    In Jan's mind, a man who is married and satisfied in his marriage, won't need to go out and have sex with other women, including raping other women.

    For Jan, rape and sex outside of marriage are somewhat similar in that they both constitute sex outside of marriage, the use of force means that just the rapist gets to die.

    So he's twisted himself into a tight little knot of defense and is attempting to parse thousands of years old text and applying a modern interpretation while telling us that "lay hold of" does not mean what his own definition is saying it means, while simultaneously telling us that we can't apply modern concepts to ancient religious text.

    "Rape" to define sexual assault did not exist as a term when the men who wrote the bible, wrote the bible. So they used other terms. Which is what Jan is hung up on.

    His queries about whether a man can rape his wife is equally telling and just as disturbing, in my opinion.

     
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Hope you heal faster than me

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  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I am tieing on a sort of a hook thingy both to prevent my fingers getting bumped and to have something to steady objects...just to open the milk you need a good hand and someway to stop the milk moving around.

    At the moment I can't start the genny cause no way to steady it so no air con I am hoping the hook will be good enough. Lucky I changed to an automatic car.


    I probably should go to the doctors and have him tape up the wrist and fingers better but there always are sick people there.

    You look after yourself.
    Alex
     
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Inul just gone to Immigration Department to extend my visa. Took the photo of X-ray of shoulder and some of the bruses as explanation why I didn't go. Well she is my sponsor

    So now good to 25 Feb

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  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Another turd in the pool..racism is higher with white Christians...just Google as I don't want to take focus off domestic violence and Christian men.
    Alex
     
  12. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    So do I.
    No.
    Rape is a terrible crime.
    But to accuse religion of being the cause of rape, is wrong.
    You said it yourself rape is about dominance and power, not necessarily about sexual gratification.
    So where does religion or Christianity come into it. When you look at the Bible critically, it puts measures in place to not only prevent the act, but to eradicate the imbalance before it even enters the psyche.

    Yes people may use those same texts to justify their actions, but that does not mean those texts justify those actions.

    We can see the that folk here are not interested in the contextual meaning, they want the text to be in favour of “it’s okay to rape women”. Just like a rapist would want it to be. Why? Because it suits their purpose or agenda.

    The whole idea of protecting women is a spiritual one. Because it is through women progeny is created. It doesn’t make sense to treat women in a harmful way.

    Women today aren’t valued for that anymore. People generally don’t care about progeny, they are more interested in immediate family. Hence folks are carted off to homes by families, when they get old. Abortion factories are set up to kill unwanted children, all because the mother wanted to have sex, and I’m not talking about those women who became pregnant because they were raped. Just women/girls giving their consent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    I don't think that has been said Jan..please point to where you formed that opinion and we will see if we can fix it so what is being said is clear.

    Well if it is in the bible you could expect men to hold it up as gospel..take out obnoxious texts then there would be not problem.

    That is not the truth Jan.

    Well explain the offending texts. They are there is it not reasonable to expect some men will seize upon them, as demonstrated in the material I provided.
    Why not address the problems and fix them rather than ignoring them?
    There is no decent morality to be found ignoring the problem and refusing to address it..would things be better or worse if the offending passages were removed?
    Maybe Christian men would treat woman as an equal for a start..maybe we could have a female Pope.
    Alex
     
  14. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    If take hold of a woman and she enjoys the feeling of being held, and becomes sexually aroused and wants nothing more in that moment than to have sex with you, that’s not rape.

    It’s pretty scary that your willing to accuse the man of rape. He can lose everything because of that false accusation. Why do you hate men so much?
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Read your bible and see what it says.

    Just look at the big picture...killing everyone except the virgins who were distributed as property...seeking definitions will not minimise the horror will it...

    Please address the matter before us..the killing of everyone except the virgins...all your small talk is irrelevant...please address the matter at hand.

    OK so you are refusing to say Billvons story points to anything that is wrong.
    ,
    Do you want me to post the numbers of christians guilty ..higher than the rest..how about that.

    Wrong...check your figures..Christians hold the record.

    No label me a Hitchinist...he says what I say about god...

    You are right of course.

    I believe in cleaning the floor so I will change it to "kick the bucket".

    Maybe you are right.

    Terrific..the book is Devine and as you said god can't be wrong and yet we have his book full of wrong stuff..does not add up does it...if an engineering book, or a chemistry book in fact any book ever printed contains mistakes it is edited and fixed...the bible definitely needs to be fixed...one can't respect a book that has passages treating women as inferior or how to manage your slaves..stealing a flood story and claiming that it really happened is wrong...believing or not believing has little to do with it...the thing is wrong ..it has been edited in the past edit it again and get rid of the really bad stuff... if it really was inspired by God he would say fix it as the current version is giving me a bad name.

    I think you are wrong here...intelligent people want things to be correct factual etc...

    If you wish to take the Mosses story as factual could you tell me what laws existed in Eygpt in relation to murder etc...like it is not really ground breaking when it comes to the commandments....

    I blame it for no more than it deserves..no more than it deserves.

    Sure...but the fact remains irrespective of me not understanding whatever the bible has many passages that are wrong and hardley compatible with the Devine...themes the facts and you making appologises does not make anything right..in fact it just makes it more wrong....

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Might enjoy this to cheer you up

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    Small musical interlude



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  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Jan I found out today that whales can be traced back at least to a small mammal the size of a rat which lived on eating insects.

    Tonight I am tracing back past that small mammal ...right back to single cell creatures...I bet the bible can't show you interesting things like that...fancy a whale from a rat like creature...isn't science wonderful.

    Do you know that it was not so long ago that theists believed whales were fish...there is an interesting English case dealing with tax on fish ...

    It is amazing how far humans have come since science has been used to explain everything.

    And also our access to history, and how astrology was used to invent all the human gods...just Sun worship in effect..I find it all extremely interesting....particularly evolution and abigenisis...once the only explanation was god and these days we are lucky to be able to read the truth on the net...
    Do you know where the after life story was invented..again interesting how it got off the ground..at first only important people got a look in but due to popular demand the priveledge was extended until today anyone can have afterlife..or at least believe in it....

    If it's there I am looking forward to it ...

    Alex
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Thanks for thinking of me. He is an excellent player...
    Alex
     
  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Talking of whales...what gives with the johna and the whale story..what was the moral?
    Now that story is clearly so wrong and yet it's in the bible...why?

    So Jan you can now avoid the real issues and talk about whales..now is it not kind of me to let you off the hook.


    Alex
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    13,968
    Respond to the question
    I will after you respond to the question(s)
    God cannot be wrong.
    You realise this more quickly if you respond to the questions
    Show that they believe in God
    That phrase has no correlation to death
    Leaving the planet once the body is used up, does
    I am right
    You hate because you hate God.
    I don’t have to make apologies for the Bible. I just have to read it without hate and bias.
    It is the truth.
    You want the Bible to approve of rape of women, so you can justify your hate.
    You tried to accuse me of approving rape and murder, because of that anger and hate you harbour.
    Like I said before, you’re an evil man.
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    I did I said to read your bible.

    No you won't and we both know why you refuse to answer.

    I do not believe there is a god so how could what you suggest work?

    But criminals ...how does that work?

    But it does ..you need to get more experience in the world.

    "To kick the bucket, to die." Useful advice if standing on a bucket - don't kick it. One theory, albeit with little evidence to support it, is that the phrase originates from the notion that people hanged themselves by standing on a bucket with a noose around their neck and then kicking the bucket away.

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    www.phrases.org.uk › meanings › k...
    The phrase 'Kick the bucket' - meaning and origin. - The Phrase ...

    Not to me and I am the one using it so it means what I says it means..Alice in Wonderland rules.

    Maybe you are right....there is a first time for most things.

    That is a lie.

    I don't believe there is a god so how can I hate something I don't believe is real.


    But you do...look how you pretzelacated yourself in this thread....why is that?

    It's good that you follow my lead.

    Only because that seems to be what you are saying in respect of Billvons biblical story I certainly don't extend it past that...
    You have yet to make a clear statement ...

    That is a funny thing to say about someone who tells the truth coming from someone who has been called out for lieing by many members on many occassions.

    You made no comment upon the apparent fact that Christians have killed more humans than any other group...

    Alex



     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    That’s not a response to the question.
    That is a deflection.
    Why don’t you want to answer the question?
    At least you admit that you won’t answer the question.
    Why don’t you answer the question?
    You won’t know until you answer the questions
    Can you show that they believe in God or not?
    Another simple request
    You use it because it means something.
    If you don’t hate God, then you have nothing to fear in answering my questions.
    What are you afraid of?
    You lie. You tried to accuse me of approving murder and rape. That’s evil.
    And don’t think I wasn’t aware of your lies in getting me banned the last time
    If that were true, you would engage me in discussion before accusing me.
    But you won’t because you’re an evil man who would have easily send an innocent person to jail, or their death, if you could. That’s why I regard you as evil.
    Nothing you say is credible with regards to the truth.
    You are an evil, hateful man.
    I’ve tried to be reasonable with you, overlook your two-faceness, and tried to engage you in discussions, and you continue with with your lies and folly.
    It is clear you are afraid of real discussion.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Your defense of rape is pretty scary.
    So if you saw a man grab a woman, hang onto her, force her to the ground and start tearing her clothes off, you'd just walk by? Because she must be enjoying it?

    You are a sad wee example of a man.
     
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