Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by MetaKron, Aug 28, 2006.
Yet, your not willing to share that body of evidence?
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I know that there is a body of evidence that you are aware of and have dismissed and you pretend it doesn't exist. Share that.
I never said that. But you appear to be claiming of something that is unaware to everyone else, yet will become aware of it, someday. How are YOU aware of it?
Did you describe or state something that was confirmed by science? Can you show us a picture of your Nobel Prize?
I have no idea what you're talking about. Mind-reading is still in it's infancy. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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This conversation is too intellectual for me. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
It's too intellectual for Bush, too.
I wonder what that says about the country he leads as an elected representative. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
metakron, why don't you like bush?
Do I even want to go there? Not in this thread, it was just something to say while we were rambling. If we want a Bush-bashing thread, the board makes new ones free of charge.
What appears at first to be a paradox, is, IME, a realization of choice.
Christianity is big on the concept of Free Will, Indian theology is heavily based on Free Choice; namely, the freedom to choose the scope with which you view the universe. By changing either your spatial or temporal field of view, you can both exist (as the thinker), and not exist (your effects becoming inconsequential given a large or long enough viewing area).
A duality, not a paradox.
That is because Buddhism grew up in Hindu society. We in the west only see it as Buddhism because Buddhism came to prominence here before Hinduism did. That which is Buddhism is not a religion, but a philosophical method to achieve Hindu enlightenment.
I had a hard time with this question for years. It seems quite the problem, doesn't it? Until you read translations that are more academic, and do a better job of clarifying ambiguous word->word translations.
Desire is not the problem; Upādāna does not mean desire. Desire is a natural occurrence, and just like everything else, can be acknowledged, and let go. Suffering comes when we refuse to let go of that which we desire; clinging. That is Upādāna, the root cause of much of life's Dukkha, suffering.
What about EKG or whatever? Doesn't pick up electric fields? Isn't the whole thing based on that?
Besides, why would the soul be ELECTRIC FIELDS, of all things? If it was, it would be based on some type of physical material, and it would have to fight for space with our body? Is soul some type of organ?
Soul is immaterial, and as such it can barely be thought to possess abilities assosociated with matter. Such as gravity, electromagnetism etc etc.
But if soul is built of immaterial particles, it would have abilities NOT like physical ones. It would also be nary impossible to prove without having scanners made of spiritual particles. Which we wouldn't be able to see or hold, heh.
So what if the soul is on read-only? It reads brainwaves on our head (scanning magnetic fields through some Unified Field Theory thingie), and haves a fit. Maybe it would change some currents in our head, changing the way our neural cells emit electricity, to create feedback (inducing IDEAs). Assuming, of course, it has the ability to manipulate material fields through some meansm but if can't, it coudn't sync with the material anyway, and WE wouldn't have souls. They'd just be some floating spirits we can't touch.
"there is no individual, get it?"
So everyone is in their own reality, but there is no me, hence it's a general universe. wow. Back to square one.
I think you're using useless metafores which are just confusing people. I think the world was originally Chaos, a complete disorder where all energy was in its smallest possible form, the indivisible. And the world is CLIMIBING towards unity. Wholeness of one. That's where eastern philosophy differs from the western. Eastern philosophies tend to think that at first everything was united, and if we could just return to that state oh how wonderful it would be.
I think "go forward". Not one step back. The big boom separated all things and now it has to attain unity again. The universe is infinitely separate, and ego is just a self-image of there being "one" me. It can be split into millions of parts. That's what "there is no me" means. Not deviation from unity.
Oh and Metakron,
"The Christians paint a very clear picture that tells you almost nothing."
If were going to talk about talk about how cultures define it..
The concept was invented to explain a phenomenon. The phenomenon was "matter having life", or "what makes a dog diffrent from a statue of dog, or a corpse of dog". So they invented this funny concept of soul. But what they really where chasing was personality, neural network and the crazy stuff that makes people live, or makes them die.
But since personality and neural networks have been explained, I thought we could just skip past the whole "what makes me me?". but...
"The "right" kind of soul "comes from God""
I think they mean by this diffrent patterns of behaviour. That is to say, ideal models for behaviour. And the "other kinds of souls" are behaviour patterns we don't want in others, like "selfish" or "lying". Soul in this case would be a pattern of memories, that paint a kind of "point of view", against which we mirror everything.
"They do tell us that the soul is an add-on."
Supports the pattern-thinking. Body can exist without personality, personality can't exist really without a body.
"lot of irrational behavior in humans that you don't see in animals."
I think people act diffrently from animals because we can disqualify what we experience, remove our attention from what is at hand and imagine. This creates behaviournal patterns no animal can have (apart from cats :3).
So, having rudely debunked all your arguments, I agree everything does not match. You are (I think) thinking that some knowledge just seems to come from somewhere, some things that just seem impossible to know beforehand? That death has not really been explained? That other phenomenon have not been explained? I agree. Hence my theories.
But we have to separate subjects that are about psychology and those about parapsychology (psyche means soul in ancient greece or latin, I think. Just to make some sense..). But since this is your thread, I'll play your game..
"I suspect that there is naturally an incarnate soul that does not require a reincarnated soul to function correctly."
So, the body has a mind (the brain), but is connected to an etheric memory-bank, that can assimilate souls or information floating in the ether (or wherever the souls hang out when they are not in our body...); Then souls, or parcels of information, is sent by god, and received in the soul, and this tries to communicate with the body. As detailed above, this is not easy. Hence, to err is HUMAN, while the divine truth is in us. But from this point of view, the "soul being parasitic" thing becomes a rather strange subject... I'd still think the body was responsible for its own actions, and the soul just being a part of it. If we assume god sends us pure souls, then it cannot err (pure=perfect, just in case). Hence the evolved soul (or the psychological mind of the body) CAN err, but the perfect soul sent from above cannot.
Also, it can be deviced that other souls, souls of the dead or natural souls of trees or animals or even planets, might also send us information, which would be unpure (or inperfect, I just use pure cause it's shorter), and lead to error.
Hence IF we assume god is perfect and sends us perfect souls, error occurs when information (or misinformation) is received through mortal means. These souls would then be parasetic. But as stated, I don't think there is any ulterior being that is perfect and is sending us perfect data. Whatever useful tidbits that flow into our mind, one way or the other, is just randomly more perfect than other data around us. Life keeps creating patterns randomly (like evolution), and sometimes it hits true. Humans have added capacity of creating random patterns, which explains erratic behaviour and diffrence from animals. Animals don't throw something that works away and makes something random up just to see what happens (unlike humans, and cats :3).
I do not know of any reason that patterns cannot exist without a body. We think of electromagnetic forces as being either static entities bound to matter or radiation moving at the speed of light. Just because we know of two types of manifestations does not mean that there are not many others. We don't really know what a magnetic force line "is" in a big way.
First of all, there was never a time when things weren't united. You are living in your own personal reality, all your experiences are relative to you, this is your reality alone, this is your personal universe, your personal dream. You, as true self act as all the people you meet, all the things you see, and all your personal experiences, always trying to tell yourself something.
Through ignorance you believe that you are separated from the all-that-is, the origin of existence, the absolute truth, the neither this, nor that, the uncreate, unborn, the one without a second, and because you separate yourself you create your own suffering.
You do this intentionally, like Sri Ram once said about a dog eating a dry bone just to see the blood from its own mouth seep out to gain happiness. In the same way we intentionally create our own suffering by telling ourself we need this external thing to happen to be happy, even though the happiness we seek comes from our own selves and no where else...the irony
It was you that chose to exist this way, I'm sure if I asked you if you wanted everything to be happy and great a part of you would say no, a part of you enjoys suffering existing, and thats why it exists
A Supreme Being that consists of everything that exists and does not exist can be an undifferentiated sort of nothingness or it can realize its full potential by differentiating and living interesting and fulfilling lives. We really have nice little minds and bodies and they are fit for that universal consciousness.
Why would we create our own pain? For what reason? What would drive us to do such thing? If there is no reason, why does it happen? Why would I choose suffering?
Very good postings MetaKron. I liked it.
I think body is more important.
Soul is like a sound (ohm) that produce vibration in small particles (bodies). Same sound can create different patterns of vibration to particles. Similarly Almighty gave the same sound (vibration) to all particle but the way each particle adopt it and behave is different. Sometimes being in vicinity certain particles show common patterns. Some times you can also see a wave of patterns repeating at regular intervals as well.
Imagine the increase in complexity if each particle had a brain of it’s own and decide it's course of action?
I think this is the reason why Almighty gave the right to action to humans and kept the results part with him Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
soul as symbiot
i wrote this article here: (post count must be 20 or greater) wow.. plz read my recent article at NowPublic under sam_micheal 'More on mind-body..') so maybe u can read it as entertainment.. i read the first two pages of this thread.. but maybe (the article) is boring for many following here.. dunno.. for entertainment.. for proposed science.. ^^ at least.. have fun Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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