South China Sea - activites and land claims

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Billy T, May 9, 2015.

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Hypewader in post 5 of now closed thread: http://www.sciforums.com/threads/china-preparing-for-armed-conflict-in-every-direction.105720/ noted:
    "... US military spending is nearly 7 times that of China.

    US: More than 700 military bases on foreign territory
    China: 0 bases on foreign territory

    US: More than 1/4 million troops deployed in foreign countries
    China: No troops deployed in foreign countries

    Brand USA: Declining goodwill around the world
    Brand China: Increasing goodwill and market share ... "

    And not much has changed; however, it appears that China is taken steps to make most of the area shown in map above, de-facto "Chinese controlled" despite the fact he cited about military power. Perhaps this is because of his last assertion.

    The surge of ~45 nations, including all of US's friends, except Japan, to join China's new AIIB replacement for the US dominated World Band, support his last assertion. Even Japan and US can not agree on the US's proposed IPP despite recent meeting in DC between Obama and Japan's PM.

    Watch this videos: http://news.yahoo.com/video/china-enforcing-airspace-above-spratly-085538154.html
    and read here: http://news.yahoo.com/china-fires-back-south-china-sea-claimants-reclamation-093122224.html
    and here: http://news.yahoo.com/china-says-philippines-violating-south-china-sea-code-022648120.html
    Photos below are satellite images of the Fiery Cross Reef in the Spratly Islands - January 22, 2006 (top) and on April 2, 2015 (bottom)
    Note residential cluster on lower's left end - Farther away for noise of new airport at other end.

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    Question is:
    What can US do with it great military power vs China's great US treasury holdings about China's growing defacto control of South China Sea?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2015
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    With the rate you produce pro PRC propaganda they should be paying you. the idea that china is a peaceful non aggressive country is ludicrous. I mean for fucks sake here you are defending china's violations of maritime law and trying to paint them as innocent. china has threatened the other countries around it to make good on its claims and of course you support them. is there a despot you don't? china is gearing up for war what ever your delusions on there peaceful intentions are.
     
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    China claimed the area they still claim, hundreds of years before those more modern nation existed*; but generally it is "Might that makes Right," in the real world. US certainly knows this - why US's military budget is greater than total of the next 12 largest. (Problem is US is not able to use that against nation with many sub- launched nuclear ICBMs. Generals always prepare to fight the last war again - so will not do well in WWIII which started a decade ago.) It is like Einstein said:
    "The atomic bomb changed everything, except the way people think."
    BTW, North Korea, just a day or so ago, made successful submerged submarine launch of its ICBM.

    No nation modern or old, except Vietnam has done much with or for the area, but many are claiming parts now that it is suspected to hold large reserves of gas and oil. Shortly after US's defeat in the Vietnamese War, Vietnam needed reconstruction aid from China and agreed to share development costs & profits from oil in the Gulf of Tompkin. - I don't know if that agreement still stands, un-modified or not.

    I'm impressed by China's growth and progress, yes, but not much different from US's stated position of neutrality on these conflicting claims. It really does not come down to question of internation law - but power. Why I closed the OP with:
    What can US do with it great military power vs China's great US treasury holdings about China's growing defacto control of the South China Sea? and now add:
    US's big mistake was to load China's "economic canon" for more than two decades with couple trillion dollars worth of US treasury bonds, given for tons of plastic Chinese toys, like hula hoops, etc. WWIII is an economic war, which China, world's greatest creditor nation vs. US, world's greatest debtor nation, is winning.


    * Why that sea has been called "the South China Sea" for hundreds of years with island of it colored the same color as the Chinese main land on old maps draw during the early 1800s by western missionaries. That ocean is closer to five other nations than China, but defacto control, not proximity, is what counts. England owns the Falklands, which are ~100 times closer to Argentina than England and proved that with "might make right" in a war with Argentina about a decade ago.
     
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  7. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    I've noticed that too.
     
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  8. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    What's funny about this, though...

    Tom Clancy wrote a book that involved China trying to lay claim to the Spratly Islands and, generally, being giant douche nozzles in terms of foreign relations...

    Tom Clancy: SSN

    Quite a good read, if I say so myself

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  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    The bold text was bold in the original.
    Link provides satellite images of all the "islands" discussed, and in several cases, the before and after (recent) images, as I did for the most important one in Post 1.
     
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  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    China is documenting its South China Sea claims, that begin BC with 10 pages here: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2015-10/30/content_22328934.htm
    And it is true that China was the world's most advanced and dominate power for about 17 centures, but that does not mean no other nations sailed ships in the South China Sea, knew about the islands there etc. WWII rewrote the political map of the world. The vast ottoman empire was no more. Japan's conquest of Asia was revered., Europe was restructured, etc. so for me, all those older Chinese claims are null and void post WWII, but part of the post WWII claims must be taken seriously. Here are some:

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    There are four more such charts, from more recent times. China, is quite serious about it sovereign claims and will not participate in or abide by any World Court decisions. Thus this has great danger for world peace. I would urge China to proclaim perpetual free passage for all peaceful ships passing thru the South China Sea, but that they can not be provocative by entering the 12 mile zone around Chinese occupied island developments in the South China Sea.

    There is no need for provocations after China proclaims their perpetual right of free passage thur non-12 mile parts of the South China Sea.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well, the US is not neutral on this issue, nor will it be. The US does not recognize China's South China Sea territorial claims and has send ships and airplanes through the region and intends to continue to do so. China gets pissed, and then its over until the US does it again. The fact is the US is allied with nations who have territorial conflicts with China. I think there is little doubt were US allegiance lies and it ain't with China.
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, that isn't true. The issue here is twofold, military use of the islands and mineral rights. Perpetual right of free passage does nothing to solve either of those issues. It doesn't look like China has much to back up its territorial claims. China has a choice, whither it will recognize international law or not.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...deals-china-new-challenge-to-territory-claims
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    If some nation is developing minerals or other wise using some land, and then another use force to take those resources for its self - That is return to "might makes right" which civilization has struggled, not entirely successfully yet, to leave in the trash can of history.

    As far as your Bloomberg link is concerned the court at the Hague has only awarded itself jurisdiction - no decision made on the merits of anyone's claims.
    China has already anounced that it will not praticipate or accept any decision of that court (other than recognization of China's claims).
    China has records and other documents spanning more than 2000 years that support it claims, but as I said in my post 8, the whole world was politically reshaped by WWII, so they only have six pages of support since then. Two of which I reproduced in post 8.

    China does recognize international law - that is the basis for its 12 mile claims and fact that little if any of the reefs/ islands it is improving was above water at highest tide does not mean an occupier can not claim title to the developed islands. Fiery Cross Reef in the Spratly Islands (top photo of OP shows that in January 22, 2006) not only was it not under water but it had a small permanent settlement of Chinese fishermen and their wives/ children. The bluish area in the center of that photo is a fresh water lake or swamp, which has been cleaned up as the water reservoir now, but it still drains into the sea. It now has an operational air field. - The true reason why US is concerned now and not decades ago with Chinese occupation of it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    As I said previously, China has a choice, it can comply with international law or not. And if it chooses the later, then the world will need to address China's noncompliance.

    Well, actually, the World court does have authority in these issues per the United Nations. The World Court didn't award itself anything. It ruled these territorial claims fall within its jurisdiction. I don't recall anyone saying or even hinting the World Court has issued a finding. But it will as a claim has been duly submitted. And I don't think the World Court abides by or recognizes your "might makes right" belief.
     
  16. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Joe Did you post before the last paragraph of post 11 was added? or just ignored it? China does observe international law. Can you site a clear violation of it? Chin does not go around the world invading nations that have oil, etc. Even their GPS is technically limited to defensive use. Necessary precision clocks are on the ground in China, not in the satellites.

    I don't have a "might makes right" belief - that is your gross distortion of what I said in first paragraph of post 11.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I don't see how you think your declaration that China obeys international law in post #11 is relevant nor does your proclamation make it true. You wrote, " China has already anounced that it will not praticipate or accept any decision of that court (other than recognization of China's claims)." The matter is before the World Court. If the World Court rules against China and China refused to recognize or obey the World Court ruling, then China will not be compliant with international law. China cannot pick and choose which laws it obeys and which laws it doesn't obey and not expect international recourse.
     
  18. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    A clear picture of China's claims and activity.
     

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