The first experimental measurement of God; to a 2-decimal point accuracy

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by George E Hammond, Jan 16, 2022.

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  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,777
    As usual, you exhibit a kneejerk response to anything I post.
    I got my information from here:

    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God is not 'a magician with a magic wand'
    Francis goes against Benedict XVI’s apparent support for 'intelligent design' - but does hail his predecessor’s 'great contribution to theology'
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-t-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html

    The Vatican's View of Evolution: The Story of Two Popes
    http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/vaticanview.html
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,777
    OK, I read that SH is talking about "downloading" from brain to computer, not to some universal memory bank.

    In fact this is the inverse of Descartes' "Brain in a vat" where data can be downloaded from a computer into a brain.
    I have no problem with visualizing that concept, either way.

    But that is not what I understand is the concept you are proposing. You are talking about something much larger and I cannot visualize your presentation. I say this without prejudice. As atheist this is just outside my conceptual ability.
     
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  5. George E Hammond Registered Senior Member

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    [George E Hammond MS physics]
    ... Cut the baloney! Now you're misquoting the facts to suit your (admittedly atheistic) fancy. In my letter to Stuart Hameroff I clearly state the following:

    "So, my question to you (Stuart Hameroff) is simply this: If we can accept Tipler's thesis that a big enough computer could resurrect the body in "virtual reality", is it possible that the then unknown microtubule computer already extant in the brain, actually does just exactly that; resurrect the body after death? As you have mentioned many times the cytoskeleton remains viable for up to 30 minutes after death. And a simple numerical calculation shows that comparing Frohlich's frequency to neuronal frequency, a prerecorded year-long" Afterlife dream" could be downloaded from the cytoskeleton in a fraction of a second. The Observer of that dream of course would be the cytoskeleton of the entire brain itself, so that even though the bedside observer would see the person expire in a fraction of a second, the dearly departed would subjectively live on for a year in cyber-paradise despite his Frohlich-speed millisecond demise. So my question to you Professor Hameroff, is simply this: Would you be prepared to say that such a thing is "flat out scientifically impossible"? George Hammond

    [George E Hammond MS physics]
    ... And of course Stuart Hameroff answered that "YES" such a thing "is possible"
    ... So Write4u, your misinterpretation of my question to Stuart Hameroff is absolutely ridiculous!
    ... The only "downloading" I mentioned in my letter to him was downloading of the "afterlife dream" stored in the "life after death microtubule system" downloading it to the entire brain and body of the dying person – period. There are NO "inanimate computers" or any other kind of "inanimate objects" involved in the entire process. The whole thing takes place
    ENIRELY WITHIN THE HUMAN BRAIN !!
    ... Juda's Priest, I don't mind you being an atheist, but I do object to lying !
    George
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,777
    I am doing you the courtesy of entertaining your "flight of fancy" by simply wondering if SH might have taken your narrative to mean "downloading" from cytoskeleton (microtubules) to another medium such as an AI.
    In return you spew venomous ad hominem?
    I am trying to remain non-prejudicial here, but please don't piss me off. You won't like to see that side of me.

    So let's continue analyzing your presentation to SH.

    QUOTE="George E Hammond, post: 3693208, member: 291175"]So, my question to you is simply this: If we can accept Tipler's thesis that a big enough computer could resurrect the body in "virtual reality", is it possible that the then unknown microtubule computer already extant in the brain, actually does just exactly that; resurrect the body after death? As you have mentioned many times the cytoskeleton remains viable for up to 30 minutes after death. And a simple numerical calculation shows that comparing Frohlich's frequency to neuronal frequency, a prerecorded year-long" Afterlife dream" could be downloaded from the cytoskeleton in a fraction of a second. The Observer of that dream of course would be the cytoskeleton of the entire brain itself, so that even though the bedside observer would see the person expire in a fraction of a second, the dearly departed would subjectively live on for a year in cyber-paradise despite his Frohlich-speed millisecond demise.[/QUOTE]

    This is what I read from the above.

    Downloading from the cytoskeleton of the brain into the cytoskeleton of the brain and resurrecting the body after death for a few seconds so that it can subjectively experience a year's worth of living in paradise?

    Assuming that experiential memories are stored in pyramidal cells, at the moment of death they would download their memories into what part of the cytoskeleton of the brain?
    That part which has been declared brain dead?

    I understand that the cytoskeleton may store short lived (kinetic) memories, but that consciousness resides in the brain and when brain activity ceases to generate measurable EM waves, how is any activity measurable?

    Any brain activity should be measurable. Thoughts are a product of EM brain activity. Without activity, it seems to me there is no consciousness of any kind present including any downloaded experiential data.

    Can you explain to me, without resorting to emotional outbursts, how this process would ensue even as a "dreamlike" state?
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,777
    AFAIK cytoskeleton memory is of short duration and may be more associated with plasticity to kinetic pressures, chemistry, and possibly temperatures. This has been observed in "slime molds".

    However conscious memory of associated thought processes are stored in the pyramidal nerves of the brain. (Hameroff)

    Function
    Corticospinal tract
    Cognition
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramidal_cell

    More can be found in my thread on microtubules.
     
  9. George E Hammond Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    434
    This is what I read from the above.

    Downloading from the cytoskeleton of the brain into the cytoskeleton of the brain and resurrecting the body after death for a few seconds so that it can subjectively experience a year's worth of living in paradise?

    Assuming that experiential memories are stored in pyramidal cells, at the moment of death they would download their memories into what part of the cytoskeleton of the brain?
    That part which has been declared brain dead?

    I understand that the cytoskeleton may store short lived (kinetic) memories, but that consciousness resides in the brain and when brain activity ceases to generate measurable EM waves, how is any activity measurable?

    Any brain activity should be measurable. Thoughts are a product of EM brain activity. Without activity, it seems to me there is no consciousness of any kind present including any downloaded experiential data.

    Can you explain to me, without resorting to emotional outbursts, how this process would ensue even as a "dreamlike" state?[/QUOTE]

    [George E Hammond MS physics]
    1 – congratulations: Now Me, Stuart Hameroff, and you know about this theory. Only 3 people in the world understand it, and you're one of them!

    2 – LAD is "only a small tail end" of "The psychometric measurement of god" which is the title of this thread.

    3 – I consider the SPOG to be proven, while theory of LAD is only "33% probable" in my opinion.

    4 – Okay, memory is located mainly in pyramidal cells distributed throughout the entire cortex and encoded in the individual tubulins of the microtubules via CaMKII phosphoralyzation and read out via UV light inside the microtubules and via Terracycle EM signals passing through the connecting MAPs between the microtubules.

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    From Hameroff, Craddock, and Tuszynski 2011
    illustration showing how CaMKII lands on a microtubule and stores memory in a microtubule at the landing spot.

    5 – Likewise, the LAD system is therefore distributed over the entire cortex in the pyramidal neurons – for obvious safety reasons

    6 – Catastrophic destruction of the brain, or at all events death by natural causes finally reduces LAD viability to the point of no return (PONR).

    7 – At PONR the already "memorized afterlife dream" downloads from the LAD pyramidal neuron microtubules and floods the "microtubule dream-consciousness" microtubule system of the entire brain and even the common nerve cells of the entire body.

    8 – This occurs in a few microseconds of real time, but since the "conscious observer" of this "all 5 senses afterlife hallucinatory dream" is the microtubule system itself, it is subjectively experienced by the dying person in "proper time" which may last years or even decades.
    note: this is caused by the fact that UV light is 10-trillion times higher frequency than neuronal firing frequency. Thus the dream is compressed by a factor of (10^13)

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    1) – subjective time versus real time!

    9 – while there is scant evidence for all this, it is in the opinion of Stuart Hameroff the world's leading authority on microtubules; "it is possible" in his opinion.

    10 –Finally, there is a widely known and much discussed mysterious coherent EEG gamma wave "spike" that has been observed in numerous (if not all) dying patients in palliative care hospitals which now commonly EEG monitor dying patients. The deathbed EEG recordings of these patients at the moment of death by Dr. Chawla, may be seen here:
    http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/jpm.2009.0159

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    A great number of medical authorities, scientists of all descriptions, and numerous religious authorities are debating whether or not the signal could indicate "the soul leaving the body going to heaven ", and obviously such a thing neatly fits my theory of life after death described above!
    In fact Stuart Hameroff himself has said "Maybe it is, we don't know".
    ... Now one more thing has to be mentioned, and that is the essential reason for the phenomenon of LAD, and that is this: No human being has ever reached full growth, the world average is probably only around 85% fully grown. This is the basic biological dilemma of Man (in the cause of the phenomenon called "God"). So it is believed that the body is aware of this and possesses (in the microtubule system) a complete map of the "fully grown body", and therefore, it has long been believe, and now scientifically indicated, that between the moment you actually die and the moment you actually cease to exist, the body finally reaches its ultimate objective which is "full growth". We actually obtain a "fully grown body" in heaven, and that is the entire PURPOSE and CAUSE of the phenomenon of life after death! It's simply another entirely natural "final stage of life".
    ...So in closing, let me say that I am tremendously impressed by your ability to comprehend this theory, while the only other person in the world who is capable of doing so was Stuart Hameroff himself ! Anyway, I hope this clears up some of your questions.
    George
     
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    12,856
    Ummmm
    What a weird system god has created?????

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  11. George E Hammond Registered Senior Member

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    [George E Hammond MS physics]

    That's what Cain said to Able...

    George
     
  12. George E Hammond Registered Senior Member

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    434
    [George E Hammond MS physics]
    ... I've read your personal biography, on Sciforums.

    ... The sole purpose of this message is to convey my personal email address:
    ... ghammond928 (at) gmail.com
    ... This is in case you have further "microtubule" commentary on my theory of
    "microtubule actuated life after death, but do not wish it to be publicly
    posted. If such is the case, don't hesitate to send me a personal email
    message, as I would very much like to hear your opinion !
    George
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,777
    Much as I wish to be able to contribute to the inherent abilities of microtubules, I cannot get past "microtubule catastrophe" which renders a microtubule incapable of generating or transmitting any kind of data.

    Moreover whereas microtubules may be able to release data for a certain duration after brain-death, it is the lack of microtubule activity (EM activity) that determines brain-death, and AFAIK it is the brain where controlled experiential consciousness emerges. Even if microtubules in the brain itself can generate "experiential consciousness" for a few moments, the uncontrolled release of overwhelming amounts of data would not translate into a coherent "story", but rather as a bright flash of uncontrolled energy (light), that many people report at the moment of death but then are revived. But IMO, that would not qualify as "afterlife".
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,777
    AFAIK a "memory" (soul) requires a medium. The internet is a combined soul of people. Buildings are stored memories of architects. Recordings are stored memories. Books contain memories. Sculptures are wonderful memories. Cave paintings are stored memories of the ancients.

    But without a medium there is no way to retrieve the expressed thoughts. Like all forms of waves, they are fleeting and disappear in a very short time.

    Tegmark observed that the inscription on a wedding ring can last for centuries, but a name inscribed on puddle of water last for a fraction of a second and then is permanently lost.

    Souls are memories experienced by the living, but not by the dead.
     
  15. George E Hammond Registered Senior Member

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    434
    [George E Hammond MS physics]'1
    ... Your "IMO" reply is incorrect on all points:
    1. – It is well known microtubules remain viable up to 30 minutes after death.
    2. – Cessation of EEG (neuronal firing) does NOT imply cessation of
    ........ microtubule electrical activity !
    3. – Microtubules in neurons are stable for life and do not undergo
    ....... "microtubule catastrophe" in any significant degree.
    4. – Alzheimer's is basically caused by "Tau MAP tangles" not by
    ....... microtubule "catastrophe", your statement is an amateur exaggeration.

    FINALLLY :
    ... Your "IMO" flies directly in the face of the world's leading authority on
    microtubules, Stuart Hameroff, who says:

    Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 09:43:23 -0700
    From: Stuart Hameroff, U. Arizona
    Subject: A Scientifically Competent Religious
    Question for Stuart Hameroff
    To: George Hammond
    Cc: Frank Tipler, Tulane U.
    Dear George Hammond:
    I believe downloading and Afterlife are possible.
    Stuart Hameroff

    I'm sorry Write4u, and I appreciate the fact that you are an atheist
    etc. , but I simply have to accept Prof. Stuart Hameroff's expert opinion
    over your amateur opinion.


    George
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,777
    At least we are having a productive discussion. I have the greatest respect for Hameroff . I have cited him as the expert when I introduced microtubules to this forum.
    So far there has been only instant rejection of my intuitive recognition that microtubules play an important part in the emergent phenomenon of consciousness.

    Now you are at the other extreme and propose that microtubules are not just instrumental in consciousness, but are involved in a conscious afterlife no less.

    At this point I prefer to remain conservative and stick with what can be proven. Although I am intrigued and will continue to follow the current active research in the concept of "emergent consciousness", I still believe that even as an individual has a fleeting memory of engrams at the moment of dying, that does not constitute an afterlife or a heaven where all these released engrams dwell forever and ever.
    AFAIK, thoughts require a medium that processes them. Death does not offer that medium.

    p.s.
    EXPLAINED: Can A Computer Win Literature Nobel? GPT-4 Could Take Us Closer To Epic Potential Of AI
    https://www.news18.com/news/explain...s-closer-to-epic-potential-of-ai-4220339.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,777
    Upon further reading;
    So what exactly does that mean? Something magical is responsible for human consciousness?

    What is this obsession with "human" intelligence, when single celled organisms already display rudimentary responses to external stressors and bacteria communicate via "quorum sensing".

    The human brain is no more than a highly evolved data processor that has acquired self-awareness over time.
    Where is the mystery? If it isn't simple, then it must take a vast amount of "raw computing power", no.
    And that is exactly what the evolutionary history is telling us.
    A single cell is a small brain (cytoskeleton) itself with rudimentary responses, and with each evolutionary step a larger more complex brain (cellular hive systems) affords greater data proccessing power and an emergent awareness of the data that is being processed. And so up the ladder, with each billion years the biological systems acquire greater sophistication (intelligence) in survival mechanisms, until we reach human intelligence (a chromosomal mutational fluke) .

    AI is already long past the bacterial stage and equal to many smaller brains in nature. There is absolutely no reason why increased brainpower does not also generates a greater awareness and experience of the data being processed, i.e. intelligent self-awareness!

    The human brain just not yet smart enough to figure it out! So much for that extraordinary mysterious mental ability possessed by humans!
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,777
    Actually it is hyperphosphorylated Tau that cause microtubule catastrophe. The Tau tangles are a result of microtubule catastrophe.

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    ABSTRACT
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC420096/
     
  19. river

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    17,307

    In Summary Write4U . What does this all mean ? Do you understand what they are saying ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2022
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,777
    In summary of what?

    The concept of an afterlife as microtubule released electrochemical data while microtubules are dying (catastrophe) that is then experienced by the dying brain microtubules as an experiential chronology?

    I would tend to think of this as an incoherent burst of energy that is experienced as a flash or at best a jumbled kaleidoscope of unrelated memories. Moreover, even if this process may be experienced as a timeless dream in the 20-30 minutes that microtubules remain functional in the actual process and thus must end in total oblivion as all physiological (homeostatic) processes of the dying body are shutting down.

    One thing that seems definitely at odds with the concept of a general release of life experiences is the fact that the brain is incapable of conscious simultaneous multitasking and it would be incapable of making any sense of a sudden overload of stimulus.

    As to the dynamic behavior of microtubules themselves, refer to my microtubule thread. I have tried to represent the current state of the science of microtubule utility and behavior. A little jumbled, but a quick perusal will explain the gist of individual posts and why I felt it was related to this vast subject.

    After all, microtubules (cytoskeleton) provide the functional mechanics of individual neural cells and the entire neural network, it is that simple.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2022
  21. river

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    17,307
    Oblivion , define oblivion , Write4U .

    What of the Spirit . Life's Energy . There is a difference between energy / matter in this Universe and Life . Life evolves .
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2022
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,777
    The inability to experience anything at all. Absolute nothingness. A state of non-existence.
    All the biological machinery that allows for experiential existence will disintergrate and disperse as individual atoms or molecules, to be used by the growth of new life of any kind.

    It is the atoms and molecules that have extended lives potentially as part of a whole series of life forms or even for other energetic expressions.

    Carbon is an essential ingredient of all living things and keeps redistributing all over the globe. We even use fossil carbons to power our cars.
     
  23. river

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    17,307
    Does the Universe its self still exist , Galaxies , Quasars , Stars , etc. ?
     
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