Trans vs feminists: Are Trans women women?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    23,688
    You posted the description, not me.
    This one:
    Mostly rightwingers, in that crowd.
    That's irrelevant to your claims, on top of being ridiculously false, on top of being standard wingnut memes you once again parrot from your silly videos.
    You can't learn history from wingnut videos. They are not honest, not accurate. You end up talking about the "liberal media" - and once you've drunk that koolaid, no little red pill will be enough.
    Divide who? Destroyed what?
    Same basic thing happened in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, 2000, and 2004, with the Presidency. With Congress it built over time (turnover is slower) locking in around 1992, and more or less consolidating, generally, since.

    And this bypasses the issue, which is the trans/feminist conflict - which is not a leftist issue, or a divisive one, any more than gay marriage.
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    What does it mean to be "a woman"?

    Because your posts seem to be quite contradictory.

    For example:

    So, what does it mean to be "a woman"?

    It's interesting, because you object to transgender women defining "women":
    But in a way, you interpret feminism as being about the vagina when you argue about women risking pregnancy and mention the likes of Greer..

    Another interesting point:

    How does one have a history of being a woman, if being a woman when:
    I mean, as a woman and an avid feminist, I am curious.

    If we were to take this argument seriously, shouldn't feminists be embracing transgender women? Since they are rejecting the idea of gender, shouldn't transgender women be widely lauded by feminists? Shouldn't their rights be fought by feminists who reject the very idea of "gender" and instead, embrace the sense of self and self identity and rights?

    Or are those feminists pissed off because their "safe space" is being invaded by transgender women and for some obscure reason, being a woman is really about hair, tits and their vagina, which those feminists rely on to use the women's bathrooms and safe spaces to begin with, because that is what is used to identify them as "women".. Ironic, no?

    Do you know who are actually invading women's safe spaces? Men who are intent on making sure we have the hair, tits and a vagina to use them. Women are being accosted by men, because they don't fit the stereotype of what men,

    Because I don't know about you, but when I use a women's public bathroom, I don't check under each door to the stalls to make sure the women using them have a vagina.

    Now, how does one have a history of being a woman?

    Or do you mean "female"? Because your argument would reject any female under the age of 'adulthood' when she could be described as a "woman"?

    Or are you commenting on the history of misogyny that women have faced for a multitude of generations? Because if that's the case, I'm pretty certain transgender have a fair case to make in regards to discrimination and hatred, not to mention domination and exclusion.

    You're kidding, right?

    Germaine Greer once said that transgender women essentially cannot be women because they do not know what it's like "to have a big, hairy, smelly vagina”... And you were lamenting that transgender women are all about the hair, tits and vagina?

    Irony.

    Greer has made her brand of feminism all about the tits and the vagina (when she is not dreaming about pre-pubescent boys and their semen that runs like water, that is). One of her most vocal arguments against transgender women is that "they do not look like, sound like or behave like women".. Which again, contradicts what you seem to believe feminism are arguing about women and what feminists entails. To wit, Greer has made the whole issue of "the woman" all about her looks, what she sounds like and how she behaves.. Which is stereotyping women to fit into this little boxes, in regards to her looks, how she behaves and even her voice. If anything, Greer sets the women's rights movement and feminism back to the stone age. She whines about men, but her views on women stems directly from how men view and treat women. If we do not look a certain way, sound a certain way or behave a certain way, then really, what hope is there for us as women?

    So I'll ask again.. What does it mean to be a "woman"?

    Or are you going to bend over and look at what's between our legs to make that determination because it's all about the hair, tits and vagina...?

    Again, irony..
     
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  5. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Satanic. This is unfair to a lot of people.
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Bells,

    What does it mean to be a women? because it seems these camps of radical feminist, "funfeminist" and trans-activities, seems to have very different ideas on what it means to be a women, hence the core of their dilemma. If say you have a "safe space" for women, who exactly do you let in?

    Personally I don't see value in identifying as a women, or a man, or a what ever, it think it is narcissistic and tribal and only breeds division, we should strive to move away from that primitive thinking. Here is a pep speech about that by someone that sounds like what kitten being petted by angels sound like:

     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    I would note that after decades of feminists and liberals alike trying to establish that gender is a social construct it just seems strange that Paglia should demand "reference to biology when it comes to gender". Then again, it's almost as if we're trying to fold radical feminism into mainstream discourse, and it seems very strange in this context, too, that we should do so, as if, hey, someone thinks they can license cruelty with radical feminism, so it finally has some use to people who otherwise generally reject either radicalism, feminism, both, or their nexus.

    We might also note that if nature didn't provide its own examples, the proposition of sex defined chromosomally within a binary framework would not seem so much like a social construct.

    When a man picks up a woman, fucks her, beats her, and then runs over her repeatedly with his truck in an alley, who among us is willing to assert he would have done that to another man?

    Well, Mrs.Lucysnow; that's who. At least, that's a symptom of the argument you've posted.

    Who among us imagines the man who does that is saying, "Yeah, that's right, dude! Take that, dude!" Even if he wants to use male terminology, he will feminize her.

    So, yeah, you know, some guy using certain words while banging me in the ass is pretty damn privileged, misogynistic, and stupid.

    But what if he's raping and beating our trans sister to death because that's just what a bitch like her is for?

    Your insistence on words is a matter of aesthetics. What's going on in the world is a matter of reality. Only one of those is under your control, but even then there are limits by which it is subordinate to the other.

    And if someone deliberately and without cause went on to kill that person, would we not charge them with murder? If someone sexually harasses or rapes a transgender female is society more likely to reject and prosecute the crime because of male privilege?

    There seems to be a reason you don't want to look at what actually goes on in people's lives; it makes it easier for you license, in your own mind, your intended cruelty.

    • • •​

    Aesthetically and within the context of your own emotionalism, sure, that is what it is.

    However, you would probably be more effective toward affecting the foundations of sex and gender identity if you addressed those foundations instead of attacking people with your ignorance.
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Oh I am ignorant, that is why I'm asking what you (Bells) defines that foundation as, please inform me, educate me.
     
  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Private groups can't be forced to accept anyone they don't want. This is just as true for churches and knitting circles as for feminist summer camps. Anyway, this seems like a small sub-culture and I doubt their views have much influence on mainstream thought.
     
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree, so do many leading feminists which is why its described as "one of the most bitter and acrimonious battles on the left" but that wouldn't make sense of course unless your clued in enough to even know that this debate is even being had by women and the transgender community.

    Wait a minute, this has nothing to do with wether a bathroom is pubic or not. We have separate facilities for a reason and when if it were merely all 'public' then there would be no need for a bathroom policy because men would be zero public facilities designated by sex, we'd have boys and girls sharing the same changing rooms in High Schools etc.

    Yes we all know that transsexuals have been using bathrooms before their was ever a push for a LEGISLATIVE bathroom push. So why is there a legislative push to make a bathroom bill? My point is that its being politicized and that has consequences.

    When a transgender woman Paula Witherspoon a convicted of raping a 14 yr old and a 15 year old used the restroom in a hospital in Dallas she wasn't doing anything but she freaked out another woman enough to complain about his presence. He had served 20 years for the crime and had 'become a woman' but now he has access to women's locker rooms and bathrooms everywhere simply because he says so. Just like Masbruch who was in prison for rape and torture of women but he decided he was a woman, was moved to the female population even though he hadn't undergonoe reassignment surgery.

    "Richard Masbruch brutally raped and tortured a Fresno woman in 1991. Today, in a case that may be the first of its kind, he lives in a women’s prison. While imprisoned in Texas on theft charges between 1991 and 2005, Masbruch — for reasons that are unclear — made several attempts to castrate himself (unsuccessfully). During the next 2 1/2 years, Masbruch received hormonal treatment but did not undergo sex-reassignment surgery, Craig Masbruch said.“He’s not actually 100% female,” he said. “I guess you could say he’s 90%.” Masbruch, who was reclassified by prison officials as a woman after he castrated himself, is the focus of an inmate complaint that says Masbruch is a danger to other prisoners at the Central California Women’s Facility in Chowchilla". http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-331532

    Or

    In Australia Maddison Hall, aka Noel Crompton Hall, shot and killed Lyn Saunders. Sentenced to 22 years, Hall began dressing as a woman in jail and self-harming, complaining that he was a woman trapped in a man’s body. Maddison Hall claimed he belonged in a female jail, and was moved to the an all-woman maximum security prison, where he gained a reputation as a sexual predator and was charged with raping his cellmate. Returned to a man’s jail, Hall sued the NSW Department of Corrective Services, claiming psychological trauma and won a $25,000 out-of-court settlement, which funded his full sex change surgery in 2003.


    Why is it a predator of women can go to prison as a male, declare himself a woman, get HRT but not sexual reassignment and in then is by law allowed into a woman's prison population? Again I don't hear about this happening from female to male only male to female.

    A list of some men who committed acts of violence against women and children only to declare themselves women in prison which allows them access to women and children

    Jonathan Adrian Wolf; Johanna
    Paul Ray Witherspoon; Paula
    David Megarry Jr.; Sandy Jo Battista
    Ronny Edward Darnell; Phoebe Halliwell
    Luke Voyce; Laura
    Richard Masbruch; Sherri
    Noel Crompton; Maddison Hall
    Dana McCallum
    Geoffrey Ian Websdale; Michelle
    Paul Denyer
    Davina Ayrton
    Vance Egglestone; Shauna Taylor
    Wolfgang Schmidt; Beate
    Randall Donald Rye; Susan Rye
    Sean Paul Gossman
    William Carl Olsen
    John D. Babcock; Sarah Babcock
    Jason LaPre; Catarina LaPre
    Bryan Woodall; Misty LaCroix
    Matthew Ralf Harks; Madilyn Rebecca Harks
    Raymond Crawford-Tand; Rockelle Deadbeauney
    David Scott Teeter; Heather Teeter
    Jacobus Van Nierop
    James Dillbeck
    Lewis Stevens; Lennea Elizabeth Stevens
    Jeffrey Willsea; Xena M. Grandichelli
    Walter Miller
    Jerry Brudos


    Should they be allowed in shelters for women of domestic violence and rape, female designated bathrooms and dressing rooms? By law yes which is why Paula Witherspoon has access to places where young women can be found.

    The question being raised by feminists are mostly focused on how we are framing the idea of what a woman is. If you say trans women are really women, like actual biological women they you allow a voice that has never actually had a woman's experience. It undermines feminist theory and it undermines the meaning of a woman's experience that is embedded in her physical being (pregnancy and child rearing, menstruation, menopause, etc), feminism the kind that brought women's rights to the forefront has never been outside of the physical reality of what it means to be female. Now you're saying that trans women, can have access to all of that, they want to change the feminist lexicon of what it means to be a woman so it can include them and that's a problem. ​
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    When radical feminists and right wing conservatives begin to agree on things related to 'womanhood', well, I hear its might cold in hell these days. You get it. Why is it that liberals are not getting this? And you're right its as if they have suddenly turned on feminists as people with power trying to harm those poor men who have no power, that's why I get quotes coming back at me about race and disenfranchisement as if its somehow all comparable. ITS FUCKING INSANE! So now a white or black woman is seen as having MORE POWER than those poor disenfranchised males who want nothing more than to shirk their 'privilege' and join the ranks of women to which they belong. LOL! It would just be funny if it weren't so scary.

    Here's something else we don't like to talk about but probably belongs in another thread. There are many young gay and lesbian teens who are having trouble accepting their bodies and suffering confusion with their sexuality who are being told that its not because they are a butch female or an effeminate male but because they are transgender and these people WHO ARE NOW DE-TRANSITIONING are starting to talk about the tyranny of transgender theory.

    This woman has a blog started a group for de-transitioning women, she's quite interesting I would recommend people listen to her story as it has HUGE ramifications and is completely at odds with this notion that transgenderism is something fixed at birth or that you can actually know who is really transgender and who is not early in life.



     
  13. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    That's only part of it. Many women never experience those things and they are still women. I can tell you one thing, your talking points don't undermine the political effort to obtain liberty for all kinds of women.

    No one says it's the same for everyone, only that people should be given the freedom to be the gender they feel themselves to be, or none.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Germiane Greer thinks that telling little girls to kiss their father goodnight is forced sexual domination but I don't throw out everything she says because of it. Camille Paglia is an intellectual powerhouse, she's entitled to her opinions on climate change and I don't have to agree with her on everything she says. I don't buy into all feminist theory but I don't dismiss it either. What does this have to do with people in wheelchairs? As billvon pointed out there have always been transsexuals using women's bathrooms so why are we legislating it? All you have to do is self-identify as transgender, meaning you don't have to have had reassignment surgery, you could be on HRT and never decide to get bottom surgery and still have access to women's locker rooms and bathrooms. That's the problem. The problem isn't and has never been about men and women who have had reassignment surgery and lives as a man or woman which brings me to my next point. If a woman looks like a woman and goes into a woman's bathroom do you think there would be a problem? No. The problem is that you don't have to do that, all you have to do is say "I'm a woman" because that's how trans theory frames it, you self identify and by that declaration you are that because they discount biological sex, its very very convenient. There is a large percentage of people who call themselves transgender who NEVER get reassignment surgery, check the stats and you'll see that they're actually quite low and that's why trans activists have been pushing for this bill, not to protect trans women who look like women but to protect trans women who don't.

    Yeah but the problem isn't how culture looks on reassignment, the problem is how we look at gender. The question is this

    Is a little boy in a dress playing with dolls a little boy wearing a dress and playing with dolls or a little girl? The answer is important because all of trans theory depends on it. Feminist theory posits that a little boy in a dress playing with dolls is a male and we would say "That's okay", let him play with dolls and wear dresses if he wants to because 'gender' is a construct NOT sex but gender and so wearing a dress and playing with dolls doesn't make him a girl. Notice we don't tell little girls who are tomboys that they are in fact boys because they like to wear boy things and play boy games yet it somehow falls apart when we look at little boys. If a boy wearing a dress and playing with dolls is a girl, then we have completely taken gender back to a pre-feminist theory place because we are saying that gender overrides biological sex. Its like saying you're a girl BECAUSE you wear a dress and play with dolls. Get it now? Remember when little boys were called sissy for doing girly things? Well we are now reinforcing this idea. Yes Virginia you are an actual little girl because you like girly things! THAT is trans theory. You can imagine how this will impact the gay and lesbian community using this framework.
     
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    LOL!
     
  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Two peas in a transphobic pod.
     
  17. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    No. Remember this is not about whether people should be about wearing dresses or whether they should be allowed to take hormones or have surgery, I have no problem with that and the feminists I cite don't have any problem with that. Its the legislation of what a woman is! These laws claim that ANY MAN CAN SIMPLY DECLARE HIMSELF A WOMAN AND THEN BE CONSIDERED A WOMAN BY LAW! This affects everything. If I had a child with dysphoria I would let them play with whatever they like and wear whatever they like within reason but I would not start telling them that they are not biologically male or female. I would tell them that they are allowed to express their masculinity or femininity and that's okay. I wouldn't rush to the hospital to give them drugs to stop puberty, they can choose to do so as an adult if they so wish. The whole debate about child hormone therapy is an interesting one and deserves its own thread because its its own rabbit hole.
     
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    And yet I am not transphobic neither are these two trans women WHO ACTUALLY AGREE WITH THE POINTS I AM MAKING!! Unless of course they are self-hating transphobes LOL! What a lame argument! If you critique any ideology, if you ask questions, if you set limits then you are a transphobic. Great! That's a great way to silence everyone isn't it? You don't have to have an argument you just have to call them names, shame them into silence right? Do you mind because now its time to call yo an idiot. I mean all slurs being equal and everything. Rya is a transsexual woman and Miranda Yeardly is a transsexual woman who is also an activist and theorist



    From Miranda Yeardly's website

    "As someone who is self-critical, my views evolve and I now disavow use of the word ‘woman’ for myself and other transgender males, preferring to use the term ‘transsexual’ or ‘transsexual male’.
    It is not possible to change sex, and even with cosmetic changes the central defining feature to one being female, that of a female reproductive system, is out of the reach of every male; note what I’m saying is that reproductive class is what is central to being a woman, not that what it is to being a woman is limited to one’s reproductive system. I do not consider that males socialised as males can become a socially constructed ‘woman’. I have spoken about this many times, usually in the context of ‘trans women are not women‘. I still consider the cultural aspects of womanhood that transgender males take on are limited to ‘thin’ cultural aspects, superficial traits like clothes, presentation and aesthetics as opposed to ‘thick’ cultural aspects, for example how a society dominated by men sees, treats and ultimately created what a ‘woman’ is; obliquely I am of course referring to de Beauvoir’s work ‘The Second Sex’. As an example of how the thick cultural aspects are missed and the transgender male’s view of womanhood then based on thin cultural aspects, I deconstructed a piece by transgender activist Juno Roche wherein the author looks at the societal invisibility of themselves as an older ‘trans women’ and completely misses the point..."http://mirandayardley.com/en/why-i-disavow-woman-and-am-no-longer-gender-critical/

    I find it typical of liberals to pretend that all 'protected groups' succumb to group think and that there aren't rigorous debates going on in those communities. So you call me a transphobe for even questioning trans theory because I'm not trans, when trans people themselves are not only forwarding the same concerns but also they are also being No Platformed by supposed 'liberals' who claim to stand up for and protect the trans community. Its a fucking joke and your response is typical of that lot.
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Mrs.Lucysnow,

    I have a simple question: how often do you think a pervert is going to go into the women bathroom proclaiming he can because "transgender" just to perv on the people taking a shit? (pretty sure no one gives a fuck about women going into men's bathrooms)

    Now yes I find it interesting that self proclaimed radical feminist think transgenders are not real women and that "funfeminist" think otherwise and their is strife between them... but as for who goes into what bathrooms, I give zero fucks.
     
  20. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    51,456
    It sounds like you are saying transgenderism doesn't exist. That it's nothing more than a whim or a lark. I would just say you are out of touch with the real world.
     
  21. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    You do realize that finding two people who agree with you doesn't mean anything? And I doubt they would agree with your idiotic fears around bathrooms.
     
  22. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Why is challenging a theory that doesn't make any sense and perverts all logic a sign of insecurity? How does it affect me? Well I am a biological woman and so I have an invested interest you could say.

    First of all it is not the trans community who redefined women, it was decades of feminist voices that did that, they were the ones who challenged and changed the traditional view of women as objects and property not the trans community. Funny enough its the trans community who are overturning that work by declaring women as objects because as they see it a woman is nothing more than an idea, a woman has no biological identity which feminism is built upon, a woman is a woman because she wears dresses and makeup, its a regressive notion not a progressive one. Women worked hard to advance the idea that a woman is a woman even if she doesn't wear a dress, makeup etc. and maintain traditional gender roles. Trans theory claims a woman is a woman because she engages in feminine things, not because of biology which was used to foster and maintain gender roles. Trans theory reinforces gender, it doesn't obliterate it.
     
  23. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    What you wanted me to put down on paper every trans woman who agrees with me? I put that there so you can have access to a debate that is taking place within the trans community and its a valid debate.
     

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