Why was the Arctic once warm?

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by Dennis Tate, Mar 30, 2021.

  1. Dennis Tate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,154
    Over the years I've ran into several theories as to why the Arctic would be much warmer at certain times in the past than it is at this time.

    What is your favourite theory about this?


    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210324142842.htm

    Greenland caves: Time travel to a warm Arctic
    Date:
    March 24, 2021
    Source:
    University of Innsbruck
    Summary:
    An international team of scientists presents an analysis of sediments from a cave in northeast Greenland, that cover a time period between about 588,000 to 549,000 years ago. This interval was warmer and wetter than today, the cave deposits provide an outlook in a possible future warmer world due to climate change.


     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,371
    did i miss their theory ?
    where is that ?
     
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  5. Dennis Tate Valued Senior Member

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    1,154
    True... they did not really give a theory on the why .....
    simply just that the Arctic was once warm.

    I read a book by a friend of Dr. Albert Einstein named Immanuel Velikovsky who
    believed that the earth had many significant polar shifts as ice on one of the poles would build up to be so
    large that the mass of ice would cause the poles to shift by a significant distance once a certain
    critical mass on one of the poles was reached.


    The data related to that theory gives us a good idea as to why we have not yet experienced significant rise in ocean levels
    in spite of a great deal of melting on the world's glaciers.. as well as on the land based Greenland Ice Sheet.


    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddar...s-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses/
    NASA Study: Mass Gains of Antarctic Ice Sheet Greater than Losses
     
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,322
    Well, first
    It seems most likely that if you want to get money for climate research, mentioning warmer, and climate change has become the norm..........
    Meanwhile
    my take away from your linked was "Arctic was surprisingly warm"
    why surprisingly?
    ok
    a little searching
    It seems that the quoted timeframe would place the dates at end mis 15 going into mis 14
    (For marine isotope stages even numbers are cold and glaciated odd numbers are warm---usually warmer than today during our holocene)
    so
    how cold did it get during mis14

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    ok------not as cold as expected during the glaciation phase
    note
    mis 16 was super cold, as was mis 12
    mis 11 was much warmer than today
    and though mis 15 does not seem to be as warm, it did last much longer with 2 warming peaks
    ................................................
    previous to mis 16, it does not seem to have gotten as cold as the recent glaciation cycles.
    ..................................................
    also, look into the mid brunhes event
     
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  8. Dennis Tate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,154

    Thank you for this... . very informative.

    Do you have any specifics on more information related to a statement that I remember Dr. James Hansen making
    over a decade ago that the last time that atmospheric temperatures rose by three degrees..... ocean levels rose by
    twenty five meters over roughly four centuries.

    I am of the belief that we are not taking that extreme of a rise in ocean levels seriously at all.

    Once we do.... I think that the Carl Cantrell alternative theory on stabilization of the climate will
    get more attention.

     
  9. Luchito Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    389
    I have read it happens a few thousands years ago, when the North was South and what is today's South was North. When Mammoths got trapped by the cold environment.

    Scientists with their story of "millions of years" for recent events won't accept what the ancient man witnessed and wrote about it.

    So be it, keep asking, you will receive lots of answers from the several speculations, and you won't accept what witness of such event have been telling you since thousands years ago.
     
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  10. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,322
    25 meters-------When?
    <----- not a fan of hyperbolic hansen
    (his old supervisor at nasa said that hansen was an embarrassment)

    meanwhile
    climate optimum and sea level highstand for the holocene happened 7-8000 years ago when sea level was 2-3 meters higher than it is today.
    Given that the ultimate highstands for mis 5 and mis 11 happened near their ends
    I would speculate that the final holocene highstand has yet to happen

    .............................
    you know the story of king canute and the tide?

    ................you might find this informative
    https://www.qra.org.uk/uploads/documents/High_res_PDF_Quaternary_UK.pdf
     
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  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,570
    Velikovsky wrote a lot of pseudoscientific nonsense. This is the first time I've seen somebody claim he was a friend of Einstein's.

    His polar shift theory is bunk.
     
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  12. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,371
    i know enough to know the theorys are somewhat light with absolute belief from scientists so i err on their side of scientific process

    agreed(personal opinion)
    the pole shift has occurred and human civilization was not wiped out

    though not excluding magnetic field distortion resulting in massive radiation flooding in through the hole and cooking all life forms in the immediate surroundings of the hole
    (i think this needs more research)

    if you replaced pole shift with
    magnetic field distortion from various influences(including axis shift oscillation/procession & maybe something else) resulting in massive irradiation of an entire continent
    then i would agree

    you could argue thats what wiped out the Aztecs
    for an example(debate modeling see if you can prove it or disprove it)
     
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  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,790
    Nope. The poles have always been where they are now. You may be referring to the Earth's magnetic field - but that doesn't move the locations themselves, just the field's polarity.
    Actually it's billions of years. The Earth was formed 4.5 billion years ago; life has been around for the last 3.7 billion years.
     
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  14. Dennis Tate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,154
    I am not merely claiming that he was a friend of Dr. Einstein.....
    he was a friend of Dr. Einstein... and Dr. Einstein himself for
    a number of years.... discussed some variation of the HAB Theory... but it seems that in Dr. Einstein's later years he
    did abandon this idea????

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/nzzkxm/earth-burned-after-one-night-stand-with-venus

    Immanuel Velikovsky, Einstein's Russian Friend, Argued Jupiter Barfed Out Venus

     
  15. Dennis Tate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,154

    I just found one good quotation by Dr. James Hansen related to ocean level rise:

    https://www.ted.com/talks/james_han...t_about_climate_change/transcript?language=en



    For the record... I disagree with Dr. Hansen on his idea that we must stop using oil.... because I really like the option of putting carbon into the soil..... where it will benefit all plants and soon all humans and animals, (not to mention worms and micro-organisms).

    The following two minutes and twenty nine seconds can greatly increase your level of HOPE regarding the threat of rising ocean levels... plus, plus, plus.......


    Kiss the Ground - Official Movie Trailer (2020)
    220,758 views
    •Aug 20, 2020

    This is the first that I ever saw this trailer.... this option is truly encouraging information and it seems that the website offers more background information.

    https://kissthegroundmovie.com/
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  16. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,371
    fossil fuels
    using oil
    CO2
    stop using oil....

    what model is showing humans can stop using oil ?
     
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  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,570
    Didn't you read the next paragraph, after the one you quoted?

    "Of course, most credible scientists have dismissed Velikovsky's theories as pure fantasy. Nonetheless, the old psychiatrist with a penchant for conflating science and mythology achieved instant fame with his 1950 bestseller Worlds in Collision. He then went on to have a meteoric career as a lecturer, mystifying impressionable young minds with his own brand of anti-science."
    Velikovsky's ideas were comprehensively debunked by scientists decades ago.
     
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  18. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,371
    quick point
    1
    and a clarification of my previous post for other readers which is
    the world simply can not stop using oil
    the entire world runs on oil products
    so proposing any concept that aligns with swapping for oil
    is simply false

    quick point ...
    it is simply not possible to put enough CO2 fast enough into the soil to balance the CO2 output of current society
    and
    elaborating the flaming of the subject
    we need to reduce CO2 output
    not start adding CO2 to the soil

    the need is to remove CO2 output into the atmosphere by drastic reductions in output

    there is no alternate option to swap to as some type of false option up for grabs as an ideological paradigm for discussion
    there is no discussion

    CO2 output must be reduced
    its that simple
    wasting time on fancy tax rebate concepts of carbon sinks is not going to solve india or china or the usa
    or Europe
    (who are currently leading the world in carbon off setting
    assuming the middle east megga builds dont come on line sooner and off set the statistics
    [im not anti those megga builds and their technology im just making a point about those/'others' who may try and mess with the global data for personal agendas])
    e.g
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masdar_City

    keeping in mind
    adding a new city and then adding more people to it when it is carbon neutral
    is not an alternate plan to reducing CO2 and population expansion and
    more importantly continuing industrial outputs as they are currently
     
  19. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,322
    The autotrophs were here first
    They are happier and healthier with higher concentrations of CO2

    Do you get a kick out of trying to make the primary producers unhappy and/or unhealthy??
     
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  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,790
    Yep. They would love a nuclear war that would burn large portions of the planet and release huge quantities of CO2.

    Is that what you pray for every night? Or do you prefer to make the primary producers unhappy and/or unhealthy??
     
  21. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,322
    you want an answer?
    First let me ask one of you.
    Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,790
    Nope. My question was as leading as yours; I know you can't answer it.
     
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  23. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,371
    chernobyl proves that plant life will survive

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/chernobyl-wolves-radiation-mutation-animals


    radioactive glow in the dark wolfs living in arctic regions might be a considerable benefit
     
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